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Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana ito ang aking first presentation: In the Name of Allah the Most Gracious the Most Merciful. All praises are due to Allah swt alone the Sublime the Almighty. Peace be unto all righteous believers and may Allah swt guide those who are stillwandering from the right path of guidance as taught to us by Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the 12 Imams from his ahl-Bayt (as). Oh Allah shower peace and blessings on Muhammad and his Family... PROPHET MUHAMAMD (SAWW) AND THE 11 IMAMS FROM HIS HOLY FAMILY ARE ALL ALIVE TODAY.....THEY ARE NOT DEAD, THEY CAN STILL HEAR OUR SALAM AND supplications Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the 11 Imams from his holy family are not dead. To understand this belief of Shia Muslims we have to take note that in Islam we have basic knowledge that all human beings have temporary life on earth and we have also life after death. Life after death has two stages: (1) our life in barsakh spent during the waiting period for the Day of Judgment to arrive; and finally (2) the eternal life in heavenly paradise or in hell depending in the decision of Allah swt in the Day of Judgment. All human beings including Prophets and Imams will experience physical death on earth and be buried in the graves. Our graves is then part of what we called Barzakh or temporary exixtence after our life on earth. This barsakh is temporary partition between earth and heavenly paradise. It is a temporary place for the soul/spirit of every human being who are already physically dead or existed no more on earth. There are many hadiths testifying that in barzakh or in nay place provided by Allah swt before the Day of Judgment, all souls/spirits of human beings are very alive (not dead in the sense they cannot hear or cannot feel). They can surely hear and feel and so receives/feels either advance rewards (their grave will be converted to a blessed garden of bliss) or advance punishment (their grave will not change to a blessed garden but will contract to punish the sinners in the grave). As evident in the holy Quran from Allahs saying that those who died as righteous a nd martyrs are still alive in their blessed realm may it in barsakh or any other temporary place other than earth before the day of resurrection and Judgment: "They will be received by the angels of mercy with the greetings: Peace be on you! Enter the Garden as a reward for your good deeds." (Surah an-Nahl, 16 : 32) "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: 'They are dead.' Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not. (The Noble Quran, 2:154)" "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they are living, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord. They rejoice in the Bounty provided by Allah: And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve. They are glorirfied in the Grace and Bounty from Allah, and in the fact that Allah suffereth not the reward of the faithful to be lost (in the least). (The Noble Quran, 3:169-171)" From the hadiths we have the scenario what happened in the spiritual realm to those people who have died on earth in the way of Allah swt. They are alive and happy in barzakh receiving the advance reward from Allah swt and can still hear the people on earth who are near in their graves [ refer to the hadiths recorded by Ahmad and Abu Dawud quoted in pages 7 -22 of the sunni book entitled Life In Al-barzakh: From Death To Ressurrection by Muhamamd Mustafa al-Jibaly, access it fromhttp://islamfuture.wordpress.com/2010/09/27/life-in-al-barzakh-fromdeath-till-resurrection/ In that hadith #1 recorded in pages 7-13, it is mentioned that the righteous people are alive in their graves and can STILL HEAR people who speak or make noise besides their graves. To quote ...he hears the thumping of his companions shoes as they walk away from his grave. (see particularly in page 9 of the book mentioned above). Related to the idea that people buried in the grave can hear us it is related in the hadith that even the soul/spirit of human being in the grave can be awaken by his dearest members of his family therefore they can hear even they are in their graves (see hadiths #5 pages 18-19) We have also hadiths about what happened to the martyrs in Islam after their physical death (courtesy to Prince Salmans post) , that is they are still alive in the other blessed realm: Muslim reported in his Sahih: (The souls of the martyrs are inside green birds and move about in Paradise wherever they wish. Then, they take

refuge in lamps that are hanging under the Throne (of Allah). Your Lord looked at them and asked them, `What do you wish for' They said, `What more could we wish for while You have favored us with what You have not favored any other of your creation' He repeated the question again. When they realize that they will be asked (until they answer), they said, `We wish that You send us back to the earthly life, so that we fight in Your cause until we are killed in Your cause again,' (because of what they enjoy of the rewards of martyrdom). The Lord then said, `I have written that they will not be returned to it (earthly life) again.)... Base from the fact that Prophet Muhammad(saw) and the 11 Imams of Islam are all righteous servants of Allah swt it is then very logical to believe that they are very ALIVE TODAY AND NOT DEAD in their current dwelling place or realm. It means they can hear people on earth who send salam and blessings to them via their graves, they currently experienced the presence of Allah swt and can able to receive reward and sustenance from Allah swt. Moreover, we in Shia Islam believed that Prophet Muhammad and the 11 Imams were all martyrs or had died in the way of Allah swt. Therefore what we mean by Prophet Muhammad(saw) and 11 Imams are not dead is no other than they are not dead people in their current place or location now either in barzakh or any other blessed place given by Allah swt to them as their temporary abode as they wait for the general resurrection and Day of Judgment. I repeat, base from the holy quran and hadiths: PROPHET MUHAMAMD (SAWW) AND THE 11 IMAMS FROM HIS HOLY FAMILY ARE ALL ALIVE TODAY.....THEY ARE NOT DEAD!....THEY CAN STILL HEAR US AND CURRENLY RECEIVING ADVANCE REWARDS AND SUSTENANCE FROM ALLAH SWT!

Life In Al-Barzakh - From Death Till Resurrection islamfuture.wordpress.com Dr. Muhammad Al-Jibaly Language: English | Format: PDF | Pages: 118 | Size: 1 MB The Inevitable Journey, We inevitably go through the journey starting in this life and extending into the grave, bef... 14 hours ago Edited Like 2

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Prince Salman OK, we are requesting the attention of Abu Jaiyana, to answer.. thanks.. 14 hours ago Like

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Abu Jaiyana Salam Mod Prince Salman I believe that my opponent clearly violated th very first rule of this debate no coppy pasting of articles from websites. What is your ruling about that?

If he would apologize for that , im willing to continue in this debate.... See More 5 hours ago via mobile Like

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Datu KO pasingit. . . hehehehehehe na lang Abu Jaiyana! 4 hours ago Like

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Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana with due respect there is no copy paste there...those were just hadith quotation and provision of reference of my hadith being used as agreed in the rules....of course common sense will dectate that we need to copy and paste those hadith we need in our presentation...instead to re-type it again just copy those hadiths and paste it that would save time and energy.... about an hour ago Like

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Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana im waiting your rebuttal... about an hour ago Like 1

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Mabato Ruel matinding debate na yan bro about an hour ago Like

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Love Ahlul Bait Matindi 54 minutes ago via mobile Like

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Abu Jaiyana Muhammad Ali you are not the Moderator in this debate 8 minutes ago Like

Abu Jaiyana While waiting for the ruling of the moderator Prince Salman regarding the violation of my opponent, I would post my presentation in a moment 6 minutes ago Like

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Abu Jaiyana I begin by mentioning the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. I testify the there is no deity worthy of any worship except Allah alone without any partner. I further testify that Muhammad is Allahs slave and Messenger. The best of speech is the speech of Allah and the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad s.a.w. the worst of all affairs is innovation in the religion of Allah for all innovations in the religion is misguidance, and all misguidance will ultimately lead into the fire of Hell. May peace be unto my brother Muslims; I hope that this debate would benefit all of us by knowing and having the correct Islamic theology and correct understanding of the doctrines of Islam that is according to the guidance of our beloved Prophet s.a.w. I also would like to greet my Shia friends especially to my opponent Arsenio a.k.a. Muhammad Ali who has been challenging me several times to debate with him. He is very courageous guy; I have been challenging the senior Shia apologists in this group about this very topic but no one dared accept my challenge because they know, I supposed, that there is no chance for them to win in this issue. The topic, PROPHET S.A.W AND THE 11 IMAMS OF THE JAFARI SHIA ARE DEAD, is a clear overkill so to speak. It is a consensus of all historians who studied the Seerah of the Prophet s.a.w HE IN FACT HAD DIED IN THE LITERAL SENSE OF THE WORD. This is also true to the 11 pious people who came from the family of the Prophet s.a.w whom the Jafari Shia consider them to be the oppressed yet infallible Imams. I DONT NEED TO PRESENT A LOT OF EVIDENCES FOR THIS BECAUSE MY OPPONENT, IN HIS PRESENTATION HAD ALREADY ADMITTED THAT IN FACT THEY ALL HAVE DIED. However, I would present explanations for the sake of CLARIFICATIONS AND ENLIGHTENMENT. The confusion and misguidance of the Shia cult in this particular issue, as seen in the presentation of my opponent, is that they interpret verse of the Quran out of context. My opponent simply cited ayat from the Quran without knowing the proper tafseer of the ayat. He is treating the Quran like the Christian bible which is unacceptable in Islam. My opponent also failed to define his terms. For example, what we real ly mean by the word DEATH. Had he defined it, he would be ashamed to present his arguments and the ayat and ahadith he quoted because they all contradict to the meaning of the word. WHAT IS DEATH? It is the fact of dying or being killed. The state of being dead. (Concise Oxford English Dictionary 11th Edition) In theistic concept, death occurs when the soul or spirit is separated from the body. The causes of death could be natural (diseases) or unnatural means such as murder, accident, ect. We all know that Prophet Muhammad died in a natural death. This is also true with the 11 Imams of the Jafari Shi except for some who died through poison and in battle. They were all buried in their respective graves. THEREFORE, THERE IS NO DOUBT AND THAT WE ARE ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENT TO CONCLUDE THAT THEY ALL DIED IN THE LITERAL SENSE OF THE WORD. 3 minutes ago Like

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Abu Jaiyana DOES DEATH MEAN CEASING TO EXIST? The clear answer is no. Not one of the Abrahamic Faiths teaches that RUBBISH theology. When the human soul is separated from the body by the Angel of Death (Malakal Mawt), the body will decay while the soul will be kept in the state of Barzakh where they partially receive the fruits of their deeds either reward or punishment. In the case of the true Martyrs, their souls are allowed to roam around in their paradises. However, all these would take place AFTER THEIR DEATH. One has TO DIE FIRST before he can experience any of these depending on his deeds in this worldly life. Allah spoke the truth in the Quran: All souls shall taste death (Kullo Nafsin Zhaikatul Mawt). All the creatures of Allah be Angel, Jinn or Human beings sh all die without exception. Only Allah doesnt die. In another ayat, Whatsoever is on it (the earth) will perish. And the Face of your Lord full of majesty and honor will remain forever 55:26, 27 Shia misconception of death The ayah, Think not of those as dead who are killed in the way of Allah. Nay, they are alive, with their Lord, and they have provision There is no way that Allah meant in this ayah that the martyrs didnt die. There is no single renown book of tafseer agrees with the Shia interpretation of this ayah that the Martyrs didnt die. As a matter of fact, this ayah was revealed in connection to the death of the Prophet blessed Companions in the battle against the pagan Quraish. The pagan Quraish believed that once a person dies, then tha ts his final end. They didnt have the theological concept about resurrection or life after death. During that Battle, many of the companions were so grieved for the death of the fellow companions. Allah eased their grief by telling them that the martyrs did not cease to exist though you see them dead. Allah simply informed them that even though the martyrs were killed in this life, their souls are alive and receiving provisions in the Dwelling of Everlasting Life. Point #1 In the very same ayah, Allah confirmed that the martyrs were killed. How on earth that a killed man doesnt die? Point #2 Allah was referring to the souls of the martyrs in the Paradise that are alive not the physical bodies and souls that they once had. It therefore agrees with our definition of death that the spirit or soul is separated from the body. Point #3 If we construe the ayah to mean that the spirit or souls are being alive there in paradise means they didnt die, then the Shia are blaspheming Allah by attributing mis takes to Him because Allah said that all souls shall taste death, and for affirming that they were in fact killed and was martyred. CAN THE DEAD HEAR THE SUPPLICATION OF THE PEOPLE? The answer is NO. The shia mistakenly thought that the dead people such as their Imams though they all have died can still hear their suplications. This is why, despite the commandment of Allah that they should only call for Allah in their prayers and supplications because it is Allah who can grant their requests, they call Allah through their dead Imams, as if Allah doesnt hear, know, and understand better what they supplicate to their Imams. This is the way of the pagans and the Catholics. They ask help from the dead thinking that the dead would communicate to Allah and ask Allah by virtue of their being pious to grant the requests of those supplicate to

them. The Shia explain we are not supplicating for them as God, but we are asking them to intercede or help us This is exactly the same way of reasoning put forward by the pagan Arabs when they were told by the Prophet s.a.w to pray or supplicate to Allah alone. Thus, many Muslim scholars believe and argue that Shia are in fact nonMuslims for being guilty of shirkul akbar (major type of polytheism). FIRST CHALLENGE FOR THE SHIA The point is that THERE IS NOWHERE IN THE QURAN OR IN THE AUTHENTIC AHADITH THAT DEAD PEOPLE CAN HEAR THE SUPPLICATIONS OF THE PEOPLE TO THEM, LET ALONE BECOME ATTORNEY FOR THEM AND ASK ALLAH TO GRANT THEIR SUPPLICATIONS. THAT IS MY CHALLENGE TO ALL SHIA INCLUDING ALL THEIR AYATOLLAHS. 2 minutes ago Like

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Abu Jaiyana EVEN PROPHET MUHAMMAD CANT HEAR THE SUPPLICATIONS OF ANYONE. The Shia misused the hadith about making salawat to the Prophet where the Muslims says Allahumma salli ala Muhammad, wa ala alihi Muhammad O Allaah! SEND SALAWAT on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad. The meaning is obvious. We are asking Allah to SEND SALAWAT to the prophet, it is NOT THAT THE PROPHET DIRECTLY HEARS OUR SALAWAT. And this special favor of Allah to the Prophet is only limited on salawat only, and not for anything else, and this is granted by Allah to him alone. When Allay conveys our salawat to the Prophet s.a.w thats the time the Prophet would know it otherwise he would not know it, let alone hear it SECOND CHALLENGE FOR THE SHIA: THERE IS NOWHERE IN THE QURAN OR IN THE AUTHENTIC AHADITH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE TOLD BY ALLAH OR BY THE PROPHET S.A.W THAT THEY COULD USE THE PROPHETS NAME OR THE NAMES OF ANY DEAD PEOPLE BE THEY PIOUS OR WICKED TO SUPPLICATE TO ALLAH. Tawasool is allowed in Islam but through the merit of the person who is still alive in the literal sense of the word, not those who already have died including the Prophet s.a.w if the Shia Mahdi whom they believe to be alive and recently have travelled from Iran via Kuwait as reported in Iranian TV can NOT help the Shia, then what more those dead Imams could possibly do to help them especially that the Shia are attributing on and for them. I ask Allah to protect the Muslims from the false teachings of Shiaism and I ask Allah to guide the Shia from polytheism to Islamic monotheism; from Shirk to Tawheed, and from Pseudo-Islam to True Islam. SUMMARY OF MY ARGUMENTS: 1. The Prophet s.a.w and the 11 Imams are dead in the literal sense of the word. 2. DEATH in this context means separating of the body and spirit or soul by the Angel of Death (Malakal Mawt) 3. DEATH doesnt mean ceasing to exist. 4. NO Dead man can hear the supplication of anyone, let alone help for the supplicant. 5. The Shia misunderstood the ayah about the souls of the Martyrs being alive in Paradise due to IGNORNACE

about the reason for the revelation of the ayah; thus made a very erroneous exegesis out of it. 6. The Prophet s.a.w after his DEATH cant hear any supplication from any person. He would only know that somebody asked Allah to send salawat for him AFTER Allah informs him about it. 7. Tawasool is made through the merit of an alive pious person but it not allowed through any dead person Jazakallahu Khair about a minute ago Like

Muhammad Ali Bismillahi Rahmanir Rahim... Abu Jaiyana here are my 5 questions for you to answer: 1) It is a known fact that you are the one who first challenge any Shia to debate the topic we have now discussed. Are you aware that in your repeated challenge to us you never bother to define your own meaning or understanding of death/dead or died nor you ask the Shias what is our understanding of those words to avoid misunderstanding? Are aware? Yes or no? 2) Are you aware that there are also valid terminologies such as physically dead and spiritually dead? Yes or no? 3) Dead could not be living now. Do you agree with our understanding that Prophet Muhammad(saw) and the 11 Imams are still alive or still living now? Yes or no? 4) There is no any hadith stating that in their current abode now, the Prophet (saww) and his 12 successors (the 12 Imams) cannot hear us. Yet you mentioned that they cannot hear. Can you provide proofs for that assertion of yours? (Note: if you have no evidence from quran or hadith then you are just lying) 5) Do you believed in hadiths even narrated in sunni hadiths that physically dead people who are righteous can still hear us (i.e. Can still hear people on earth) via their graves? Yes or no? 5 minutes ago Edited Like

Abu Jaiyana Answer to question #1 Yes and no. Yes because I proposed the challenge to the senior shia apologists here but they are so afraid to accept my challenge that the Prophet and their 11 Imams were dead. Had anyone of them accepted the challenge, I would have defined for them what the word dead means. No, because you are the one who challenged me in this debate that we are having rightnow. Proof you are the starter of this thread and your challenge for me there says so. WHO CARES ABOUT YOUR SHIA UNDERSTANDING OF DEATH? It is not for you or for us to redefine terminologies in Islam. You use the ayah of Quran as proof for your claim, then it is the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet would explain what death means. The Quran clearly states that all souls will taste death, so you have to accept that if you are consistent in your evidences. The ayah you cited are proof enough against your arguments such as the souls of the martyrs are alive in paradise because that doesnt mean that they didnt die. That simply means that they did not cease to exist as the Pagan Quraish used to believe in.

Your mistake in citing ayats from the Quran is that you ignored the tafseer of those who are qualified to make tafseer. You being a newbie in Shiaism confidently interpreted ayat of the Quran without knowing and understanding the reason for the revelation of the Quran which is very essential in interpreting the message of the Quran. That FALLACY of yours is called CONTEXTOMY. It is a FALLCY in which a quote or other text taken out of context and used to mean something it wasnt mean to mean. You should also have provided us that to die means to cease to exist totally so that your so-called evidence that the souls of the Martyrs still live in paradise would be true. Therefore, it is your fault, not mine especially that you are in the affirmative side. Answer to question #2 I am aware of one meaning of being dead related to the issue being debated here, and that is the separation of the soul or spirit from the body in which Allah made the Malakal Mawt in-charged of it, which you also described as the state of barzakh in which the soul or spirit which has been separated from its body would be brought in to. And this understanding of the word death is the one supported by the ayat of the Quran as well as the authentic ahadith of the Prophet. Once the soul is separated from the body, it doesnt cease to exist thats the concept of all monotheistic religions. With regards to your so-called physical and spiritual death, that s your own concept, we dont and cant find that in the ayat of the Quran or in teachings of the Prophet. If you can produce for me your terminologies, physical and spiritual death from the Quran or from the authentic ahadith, I would be so happy to entertain that. Answer to question #3 Thats right, dead could not be living right now, which is why Prophet Muhammad and your 11 Imams are all dead, and they are all buried in their respective graves. No Muslim on earth would agree that the Prophet or your 11 Imams are still alive right now. Your problem is a fallacy called Ambiguous Assertion. You are using a specific terminology which has its clear meaning and apply it to your assertion even though the meaning of the word could not fit. For example, you asserted that the dead could not be living right now. Everyone would agree with this first part of your assertion to be true because everyone knows and understand that to die means to depart from this world. Your FALLACY arises when you use the same wor d LIVING for those souls who have departed from this world and used it as a proof that those who already have died is actually living. That is a FALLACY called AMBIGUOUS ASSERTION. Answer to question #4 The proof of my assertion is your STRAWMAN FALLACY. What is a TRAWMAN FALLACY? A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position I never said that the dead cant hear whatsoever. That would be foolish because how would Munkar and Nakir interrogate the dead person in his grave if he cant hear? That is total nonsense Mr. Muhammad Ali. What I said is that DEAD PEOPLE CANT HEAR THE SUPPLICATION OF ANYONE. So dont cut and paste my statem ent. You sliced my statement so that it would mean something which I didnt mean. That is how a STARWMAN FALLCY is done. You simply attacked the first part of my statement and you cut off the other part of it and you made it appear that my sliced statement is all that I said.

Well, that only works for newbies, it will not work on me, Ive been used to it. Your fallacy is a minus from your points. Proof from the Quran that dead men cant hear your supplications: Verily, those whom you call upon besides Allah are slaves like you. So call upon them and let them answer you if you are truthful 7:194 And not equal are the living and the dead. Indeed, Allah causes to hear whom He wills, but you cannot make hear those in the graves. 35:22 And who is more astray than one who calls on (invokes) besides Allh, such as will not answer him till the Day of Resurrection, and who are (even) unaware of their calls (invocations) to them? Al-Ahqaf ayah 5 Answer to question #5 It is the same FALLACY called ambiguous assertion. What do you mean by physically dead people, and what do you mean by that they can hear via their grave? You have to disambiguate your question because only the morons can be trapped by your pathetic question. First of all, it is nonsensical to assert that there is so-called physical death in the context of this debate especially in Islamic theological concept. When the Quran talks about death, it means separation of the soul from the body. So there is no such thing as physical death and spiritual death because spirits dont cease to exist after death. Secondly, what do you mean by can hear, can hear what, sounds, or supplications of people to Allah via or through them? If you mean sounds, noises from the footsteps of the people when they are leaving after the burial, then it is true. If you mean supplications of people to Allah through them, then there is no proof for that. Present it in your rebuttal if you know of any authentic proof for that. The point of difference between Ahlus-Sunnah and Shiaism is that you Shia believe that your dead Imams can hear your supplications and have them convey your supplications to Allah and Allah would probably grant your supplications because it is the pious dead people who brought it to Allah instead of you. Thats sounds Catholicism Mr. Muhammad Ali, that doesn't sound Islam. We dont believe in such paganish form of worship. The Prophet s.a.w is our ultimate and best example and it is attested in the Quran, and he worshipped Allah exactly as Allah taught him the proper way of worshipping Allah. The point is that it is not just about hearing sounds or whatever. The point is that its about dead pious people hearing you r supplications and convey them to Allah, or that Allah would be pleased that you supplicated to Him via other channel such as your dead Imams. Cant you figure out the absurdity of such form of worship? Can you ever find any authentic teaching of the Prophet telling the people to supplicate to Allah via any channel? I leave you those questions to ponder. Use your intellect and be open for the truth. Thank You. Yesterday at 4:35pm Like 7

Abu Jaiyana QUESTIONS FOR ARSENIO A.KA. MUHAMMAD ALI 1. You admitted in your presentation that the Prophet as well as your 11 imams had died yet you argued that they are not dead because they are living in the state of barzakh.

Can you provide for us any Islamic reference which says that BEING DEAD MEANS TO CEASE TO EXIST IN BOTH BODY AND SOUL? 2. What is the CONTEXTUAL MEANING of the ayah: Nay, they are alive, with their Lord, and they have provision Does that mean that THEY DID NOT EXPERIENCE DEATH, or does that mean that they ALREADY HAVE EXPERIENCED DEATH BUT THEIR SOULS DIDN'T CEASE TO EXIST? 3. You failed to define your term in your presentation especially the word DEAD or DEATH or DIE; CAN YOU PROVIDE FOR US ANY DEFINITION FROM ANY DICTIONARY ONLINE WHICH FITS THE LINE OF YOUR ARGUMENT THAT SINCE THE SOULS DIDNT CEASE TO EXIST THEREFORE THOSE WHO HAD DIED CANT BE CONSIDERED AS DEAD PEOPLE? Please dont add any word with it. 4. Can you provide any ayah from the Quran or from the authentic ahadith in which THE BELIEVERS ARE TOLD TO SUPPLICATE TO ALLAH VIA THE DEAD PEOPLE such as the Prophet s.a.w or via your dead Imams? 5. Wouldn't it be BETTER IF YOU SUPPLICATE TO ALLAH DIRECTLY as the Prophet had taught his companions, and based on what Allah had said in the Quran instead of SUPPLICATING TO ALLAH VIA IMAMS since Allah knows better than your Imams could what you would say to them, if they could in fact hear your supplications and that you will be charged of polytheism? Thank You Yesterday at 4:38pm Like 7

Prince Salman salam, sorry bro Abu Jaiyana, hindi ko natugunan ang pag-uusap niyo ngayon...any way... ang violation ni Muhammad Ali ay noted... sana po ipag-patuloy niyo ang debate niyo ito, until each one of you gives his conclusion... napaka interesting ang debate na ito.. Muhammad Ali. you have 24 hrs to answer... thanks.. 23 hours ago Unlike 7

Eli Madale no answer.... 20 hours ago Unlike 3

Suhaily Sultan Alhamdolillah.Nangamoti na si Muhammad Ali. 13 hours ago via mobile Unlike 5


Abu Jaiyana Nung debate namin ni Dr.Chin dito sa tacurong city, nung masakote na sya sa cross exam tinawanan sya ng mga manonood. Ganito ang sinabi nya: "hwag muna kayo magsaya dyan ha" hindi pa tapos ang laban kaya huwag muna kayo magsaya dyan mga Bro, hindi pa tapos ang laban, baka hindi pa tapos sa google ang kadebate natin. Parang chess kasi itong debate eh: kapag umaasa ka lang sa moves na minememorya mo galing sa libro, malaking problema kapag ang moves ng kalaban mo ay hindi tulad nung moves na natalo sa libro na binasa mo, mangangamote ka nga talaga 10 hours ago via mobile Like 3

Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana This is the answer of your question #1: Actually your first question is a very wrong question to begin with. You commit a blatant fallacy and I will not enumerate your fallacies here because it is very expected that a person like you having no knowledge of the topic being discussed will surely commit many fallacies. Anyway we have to continue. First of all please be reminded that I never say DEAD MEANS TO CEASE TO EXIST IN BOTH BODY AND SOUL. If you did understand what I am saying, you will know for sure that what I mean of the words "DEAD/DI ED/DEATH in connection to my saying that Prophet Muhammad(saw) and the 11 Imams had died and buried in theri graves. You will know it is no other than pertaining to their physical death or the earthly death of their physical body because our soul/spirit will never die and will never cease to exist that is why I did say as well they are alive and not dead. Of course this staement "they are alive and not dead" needs more explanation for you to understand those seeming confusion. It is not wise to assume you know also that there is (1) physical death and (2) there is no spiritual death (or no such idea as the death of our soul). I do not know if you will agree with me there is physical deaths and it means the death of our physical bodies and there is no spiritual deaths which means our soul/spirit is always alive will never die. To understand my physical death and spiritual death terminologies please be reminded of the basic knowledge that every human being is composed of physical body and of soul/spirit. What will happen of these 2 components of our being? The earthly body will die (physical death) and return to earth yet our eternal souls/spirit will continue to exist (it means no spiritual death phenomenon) hence I can see Prophet Muhammad(saw) and the 11 Imams are not dead. This needs further explanation as well. So take note of this: OUR SOUL OR SPIRIT WILL NEVER DIE AND SO WILL NOT CEASE TO EXIST. Therefore the souls/spirits of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw) and his 11 successors will never die and will be living and alive forever. Our physical bodies are just temporal, will rot and return to dust. So our physical bodies should not and cannot represent for us as our final or eternal identity. What is important and the one would represent our true identity and will serve as our true eternal identity is our soul (or you may call it spirit) not our earthy physical temporal body. That is why we will always say this: OUR PROPHET MUHAMMAD (SAWW) AND OUR 11 IMAMS (AS) ARE NOT DEAD in the sense their souls had cease to exist. So this declaration of mine is referring to their true identities which are THEIR SOULS/SPIRITS. Definitely it is valid to say they are not dead because there is no such thing as spiritual death or the death of the soul! So first and foremost for you to understand and able to follow my arguments are to know these basic facts: (1) We have existence on earth for time being but once we cease to exist on earth it means our body had died. We are dead but that is an earthly death. Our soul who is living and alive forever will just change into existence from earth to its next existence in barzakh and finally our existence in the eternal abode. So earthly death is just a stage your soul/spirit will have to undergo but your next existence after physical death is the most important. That important existence is no other than YOU ARE ALIVE AND NOT DEAD as there is no such thing the soul/spirit will die and cease to exist! (2) Our true identities are our souls/spirit not our physical bodies. Our physical bodies will die or will cease to exist but our souls/spirit will not cease to exist but will continue to live. Hence we are dead as far as our earthly bodies are concern yet in our final existence WE ARE NOT DEAD as far as our souls/spirit are concern. It is very impossible to die again after our earthly physical death because there is no such phenomenon as a literal as the death of our soul/spiritual death.

Going back to our topic: Is Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the 11 Imams dead or not dead? The answer is course not dead because if you define death as ceasing to exist then they really not dead because they still exist now and will continue to exist forever! In short they are not dead now! 9 hours ago Like

Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana This is the answer of your question #2: Many of my statements in my reply to your question #1 is related or applicable to this question #2. The verse clearly means their body had died but their souls/spirits are not dead. The context of this ayah is very much related to the basic truth and natural existence of human beings, that is we have both (1) physical bodies and (2)souls/spirits. This ayah indicates that Allah swt are reminding those who are not aware or those who forgot or have no knowledge that human beings are not only physical body that will be killed or suffer physical death but it also have eternal soul/spirit that will never die. Hence that would be the advantage of the believers - both righteous or martyrs because Allah swt showers blessings to the righteous souls in the hereafter (both in barsakh and in eternal paradise). Usually people tend to forget we are just temporary on earth and physical death (to be killed) is not the end of things so Allah swt inject this very important knowledge to the people and His reminder is applicable to both believers and unbelievers. In the other existence after our physical death (such as in barsakh or any other temporary abode) the situation of the righteous believers/martyrs are not the same with unbelievers: the righteous believers/martyrs are alive and will receive advance blessed rewards of their deeds receiving sustenance from Allah swt while the unbelievers though still alive as well yet receive advance punishment and cannot received sustenance from Allah swt. 9 hours ago Edited Like

Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana This is the answer of your question #3: Please be reminded that we are just the same in understanding as far as physical death is concern. Our physical body will die, cease to exist and became dust but our souls/spirit will remain alive forever and will never cease to exist. Our true identity is not the physical body but our soul/spirit. This final identity of ours will never die. So we would rather say: Prophet Muhammad (saww) and the 11 Imams are not dead but alive in reference to their souls/spirits! So one thing you are lucking is that you never assert or have no any idea at all that our souls/spirits are our real and final identity and there is no such thing as spiritual death or the literal death of our soul/spirit. Hence Prophet Muhammad (saww) and the 11 Imams are not dead now but alive still living receiving sustenance from Allah swt as the said ayat will readily confirm. 9 hours ago Like

Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana This is the answer of your question #4: This question is very much related to the question of whether or not we are allowed to ask help from our Prophets or any servants of Allah swt including the 12 Imams to intercede for us before Allah swt. It is very clear in the holy Quran and hadiths that poeple were asking help from the servants of Allah swt (like the shia of Moses asking his help). That is base from the fact that the help, the prayers and supplications of Allahs servants (Prophets and Imams) are more effective than ordinary believers. If these Prophets and Imams are in our reach or still alive on earth we can simply ask them directly to pray and intercede for us before Allah swt. If they are far from us or already physically dead we can still ask their help base from the fact that they are not spiritually dead hence they are still alive and living and can hear our request asking their help and intercession. Example of people asking help to someone other than Allah swt like Prophet Muhammad(saww) and other prophets(as) are the following:

1) "And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful." Holy Quran 4:64. (Note: this verse testified that the people asked prophet Muhammad(saw) for help or intercession and the Prophet (saw) had prayed/intercede for them and was accepted by Allah swt) 2) "And when the punishment descended upon them, they said, "O Moses, invoke for us your Lord by what He has promised you. If you [can] remove the punishment from us, we will surely believe you, and we will send with you the Children of Israel." But when We removed the punishment from them until a term which they were to reach, then at once they broke their word." Holy Quran 7:134-135 3) "O our father, ask forgiveness for our sins, verily we are sinners. He said: 'Soon I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Verily He is oft-forgiving, most merciful'." ( HQ 12:97-98). 4) They (i.e., prophets and Imams) do not say anything until He orders, and they act (in all things) by His command. He knows what is before them and what is behind them and they (i.e., those saints) offer no intercession except for anyone whom Allah accepts, and they are in awe and reverence of His (glory). Holy Quran 21:27-28. 5) On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him. Holy Quran 20:109; 43:86 and 19:87 Note: These sample verses testify that asking help from someone qualified is not haram, that Allah swt will allow His righteous servants to help or intercede or will accept the intercession of His righteous servants whom He permitted. It means asking for intercession to Prophets and Imams and their respond to intercede for us as per our request to them is not haram in Islam). From hadith: 1) It is attributed to Abdullh bin Masd that the Holy Prophet (saw) is reported to have said:My life is bl issful for you because you hear traditions from people and relate them to others and my death is also blissful for you because your deeds will be presented to me. If I see the virtues prevail, I will be grateful to Allah, and if I see the vices prevail, I will pray for your forgiveness from Allah.[Haytham transmitted it in Majma -uz-zawid (9:24) and said that that tradition had been reported by Bazzr (in his Musnad) and its sub-narrators are all of sahh (sound) hadith]. Take note that in these hadith, the Prophet had promised to help or intercede in our behalf. 2) Anas ibn Malik (Allah be pleased with him) said: Allahs Messenger (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said: The Prophets are alive in their graves, praying. [Abu Yala transmitted in hi s Musnad (6:147, no. 3425). Al-Haythami mentioned it in Majma az Zawaid Volume 8, Page No. 387, Hadith No. 13812; al-Bazzar, Ahmad, ibn Hajar in his al-Lisan said the narrators of Abu Yala are trustworthy. Abu Hatim said: passable in narration. The had ith was also transmitted by alBayhaqi in his volume on the life of the Prophets (p. 3) and he authenticated it. Likewise, al-Munawi authenticated it in Fayd al-Qadir. See also Al-Albani, in Silsilat al-ahadith al-sahihah Volume 02, Page No. 187, Hadith Number 621.] 3) Anas b. malik reported Allah's Messenger (saww) as saying: I came. And in the narration transmitted on the authority of Haddib (the words are): I happened to pass by Moses (as) on the occasion of the Night journey near the red mound (and found him) saying his prayer in his Grave. [Sahih Muslim Book 030, Number 5858:] 4) Muhammad b. Qais and 'A'isha) reported that the Prophet (saww) had said: ....Gabriel came to me...he (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' and beg pardon for them. I said: how should I pray for them? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, Insha-Allah, join you. (Muslim - Book #004, Hadith #2127) Take note that those hadiths quoted above indicate that prophets of Allah swt prays for us and still prays even though they are already physically dead and already in their graves. So if you visit their graves and request the Prophets to pray for you, then they will surely pray to Allah swt for your sake in the same manner they will help and pray for the people during the time they are alive on earth. 4 hours ago Edited Like

Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana This is the answer of your question #5: This question is already answered above (see my reply in your question #4). Be informed that in Shia Islam we have basically 3 possible ways how to pray to Allah swt: 1) Direct : We pray directly to Allah swt by our own. This is very common practice 2) Indirect: Because sometimes or oftentimes we are not sure of our worthiness we tried to ask help or intercession from

Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the 12 Imams to pray and intercede in our behalf. Thus they will pray or intercede for us. Example of this can be found in the Holy Quran( 4:64; 7:134 -135 and 12:97-98 as quoted in my reply #4) 3) Direct yet also Indirect (Mixed): We pray to Allah swt directly to Him yet invoking the worthiness of his righteous servants (such as His prophet s and His appointed 12 Imams). Example of this kind of prayer is this: "O Allah! This so and so (i.e Prophet Muhammad(saww) and the 12 Imams) is/are your servant(s) of yours is/are very close to you. You promised them eternal bliss and paradise because you love them much. I do love them also and one of their followers but I am not sure of my worthiness before you. O Allah! Pardon me and forgive my sins due to this love and connection I have with this pious servant of Yours". Best sample for #2 is that of Umar asking the Prophet(saww) and later Abbas for help to pray Allah swt for rain (seeBukhari Volume 2, Book 17, Number 123: Narrated Anas: Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain."(1) And so it would rain. Related example of #3 is the prayer of Prophet Muhammad(saw) to Allah swt asking Imam Ali(as) to be his helper. Of course he could ask directly to Allah swt to help him but in this case he ask Allah swt to let Imam Ali(as) help his mission: Right from the beginning of his mission Musa (as) prayed as follows: "Musa said: O Allah! Assign me a Vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Haroon. Add to my strength through him, and make him share my task: that we may celebrate thy praise without stint... (Allah) said: "We granted your requests, O Musa" (The Qur'an 20:29-36) Sunni ref interestingly Suyuti in his commentary of the above verse sites the following tradition: "When this verse descended, The Prophet (s) was on a mountain, straight after it's descent, The Prophet (s) prayed to Allah, Oh Allah! Through my brother Ali, ease the burden on my back', and Allah accepted this prayer" Tafsir Durre Manthur, by Jaladin Suyuti, Vol 4 p 295 Another best example is the hadith about the blind man: Bukhari, Tirmidhi, and many others relate, through their chain of narrators from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf, that a blind man came to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and said, "I've been afflicted in my eyesight, so please pray to Allah for me." The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said: "Go make ablution (wudu), perform two rak'as of prayer, and then say: "Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight [and in another version: "for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me"]." The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) added, "And if there is some need, do the same." This hadith was recorded was recorded by Bukhari in his "al-Tarikh al-kabir", Ahmad (4:138 #17246-17247), Tirmidhi (hasan sahih gharib -- Da`awat Ch. 119), Nasa'i (`Amal al-yawm wa al-laylat p. 417-418 #658-660), al-Hakim (1:313, 1:526), Tabarani in al-Kabir, and rigorously authenticated as sound (sahih) by nearly fifteen hadith masters including Ibn Hajar, Dhahabi, Shawkani, and Ibn Taymiyya.] by Ibn Majah in his Sunan (Book of Iqamat al-salat wa al-sunnat, Ch. on Salat al-hajat #1385), where he said it was rigorously authenticated (SAHIH), by Nasa'i in "Amal al-yawm wa al-layla", by Abu Nu'aym in "Ma'rifa al-Sahaba", by Baihaqi in "Dala'il al-nubuwwa", by Mundhiri in "al-Targhib wa al-tahrib", by Haythami in "Majma' al zawa'id wa manba' al-fawa'id", by Tabarani in "al-Mu'jam al-kabir", by Ibn Khuzayma in his "Sahih", and by others. Nearly 15 hadith masters have conformed that this hadith is Sahih. Imam of Ahlul Sunnah Alusi al-Baghdadi quoted Ibn 'Abd al-Salam as saying that it is permissible to invoke Allah for the sake of the Prophet (s), since Pr ophet Muhammad (s) is the leader of the children of Adam. Alusi concluded that tawassal was permissible and in support of his assertion cited the above mentioned and said: There is no objection in making tawassul to God by means of the dignity (jah) and prime position of the Prophet (s), whether it is in his lifetime or after his death, since dignity here refers to an attribute which is one of the attributes of Almighty Allahtawassul by means of dignit y of a person other than the Prophet (s) is also permissible, provided that the one who is being considered a wasilah has a station and position of dignity in the sight of Allah. (Tafsir Ruh al-Ma'ani, vol. 6, page128) Maybe you will say asking help or intercession is allowed if the Prophets and Imams are still alive but now it is shirk because they are already dead. Again my answer to that is this: Prophets and 12 Imams of Islam are not dead and now I presume you know already what I mean of my words They are not dead. It means they are not spiritually d ead, their souls/spirits are still alive and still functioning as righteous servants of Allah swt ready to help or intercede us if being asked or requested by their followers (in fact even if they are not requested, they may voluntary pray/intercede for us). By the way you insisted that physically dead people like our 11 Imams cannot hear our supplications requesting or asking

their help to pray for us or intercede for us yet you had vehemently deny my request to provide evidence that physically dead people cannot hear. Are you saying dead people can hear except supplication? That would be a funny idea. But if you mean dead people really cannot hear, then please provide proof for it that dead people cannot hear such as supplication. On the other hand, I see the real problem of your argument stressing dead people cannot hear let alone supplication. That is because you have no idea at all or maybe you failed to consider that physical death or death of our body does not mean end of our soul/spirit as well. Our soul/spirit continues to exist intact and so can still hear the same manner when it has attached to the body during our earthly existence. Evidences in hadiths that dead people can still hear us even they are already in their graves are abundant. If you want websites to know those hadiths just tell me 8 hours ago Edited Like

Prince Salman salam, may i appeal to the other respected members not interfere in this particular discussion.. Abu Jaiyana has 24 hrs limits to refute the answers of Muhammad Ali. thanks.... 8 hours ago Like 2

Muhammad Ali Prince Salman I think as per rules given by Abu Jaiyana, the next step is for me to present rebuttal, then my opponent will present his, then our conclusions....pls clarify this 8 hours ago Like

Prince Salman Rules: bawal ang copy pasting of articles lahat ng scriptural evidence ay lalagyan specific referrence ang time limit sa pagreply ay 24 hours from the time of the opponent's last post ang hindi susunod sa format at rules ay talo na english ang gagamiting wika sa debate pwede rin haluan ng arabic pero bawal ang tagalog o anumang wika maliban sa arabik at english, except dito sa rules at format bawal ang personal attack (ad hominem) kung payag ka dyan ay pwede ka na mag post ng presentation mo thanks.. 8 hours ago Edited Like 1

Prince Salman so the floor is to him to reply or refute...okey..

8 hours ago Like

Muhammad Ali naglaktaw ka Prince Salman...hindi yan ang orignal rules ni Abu Jaiyana....mas complete ang original.....paki tanong nalang kay Abu Jaiyana sa kanyang sariling rules...hehehe 8 hours ago Edited Like

Prince Salman yan ang original rules, kinopya ko yan mula sa orihinal... sana po huwag kang humanap ng excuses...okey.. let us wait Abu Jaiyana to reply... 8 hours ago Like 1

Abu Jaiyana Mod Prince Salman I think that the confusion here is that Muhammad Ali has just posted his responses to my questions. Thats just part of my cross exam for him Muhammad Ali is to post his rebuttal first, thats the format in the thread which he deleted. He is to ask questions first, then my turn - this is the cross exam part now for the rebuttal part, he is to post first, then my turn. This wud also be the sequence for the conclusions please impose the default rule in written debate that once the opponent has posted his response, he is NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE ANY EDITIONS TO IT. Is noticed that my opponent Muhammad Ali is editing his posts. That would be a clear DISHONESTY on his part. Thanks 7 hours ago via mobile Like 3

Altar Musa PAUMANHIN SA LAHAT LALUNA KAY BRO. Prince Salman AT SI Abu Jaiyana BASTA ARGUMENTO NI Muhammad Ali AY DISTORBO SA UTAK NGUNIT MADALI LUNASAN KAPAG NAPAG-ARALAN MO AT SANAY DITO SI BRO. ABU AT IBA PANG SUNNI DEBATERS. 7 hours ago Like 1

Prince Salman okey, Abu Jaiyana, i think naitindihan na yan niMuhammad Ali,..any way,binasa ko ang answers ni Muhammad Ali parang andoon rin ang rebutal niya sa cross examine mo... we are hoping to continue your discussion in a peaceful manner.. thanks. 7 hours ago Edited Like 1

Prince Salman ito ang kumpletong rules pinagsunduan niyong dalawa: Abu Jaiyana Quote: Kung ganun ganito ang topic: The 11 Imams of the Jafari Shia Are Not Dead yan para mas malinaw presentation ka muna, tapos presentation din ako. Pagkatapos, tanungan 5 questions each, ikaw ang mauna mag post ng 5 questions tapos sagot ko sa 5 questions mo pagatapos ako na nmN ang magpopost ng 5 questions tapos sasagutin mo rin ang 5 questions ko tapos nun rebuttal ka sa mga arguments ko, tapos rebuttal din ako pagkatapos mo tapos conclusion ka, at ako din pagkatapos mo tapos nun di na tayo pwede mag post unless may magtatanong sa atin rules: bawal ang copy pasting of articles lahat ng scriptural evidence ay lalagyan specific referrence ang time limit sa pagreply ay 24 hours from the time of the opponent's last post ang hindi susunod sa format at rules ay talo na english ang gagamiting wika sa debate pwede rin haluan ng arabic pero bawal ang tagalog o anumang wika maliban sa arabik at english, except dito sa rules at format bawal ang personal attack (ad hominem) kung payag ka dyan ay pwede ka na mag post ng presentation mo thanks 6 hours ago Like 1

Prince Salman we are requesting the attention of all respected members who would like to ask questions to our two debaters after their conclusions..to give your name with your identity (ahlusunnah, shia).. 6 hours ago Like 1


Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana the time for me to post my answers is not yet up so i have the right to edit my posts as I saw it....there is no dishonesty on that.... 4 hours ago Like

Altar Musa USELESS IF DEBATE WITHOUT ANY CONSIDERATION. 4 hours ago Edited Like 1

Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana this is my rebuttal (1 of 3) In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. And Salutations upon Prophet Muhammad(saw) and His holy Family(as) who are all still living and alive now receiving sustence from Allah swt First of all, my answers to your 5 questions together with this presentation constitute my over-all rebuttals. Hope you can match-up my points against your points for comparison. Actually, I can sum up my rebuttal by simply saying that my opponent Abu Jaiyan created a blatant blunder by just focusing to the earthly life of Prophet Muhammad(saw) and the 11 Imams so he concluded that they are dead now. The sad fact is that they stop on that point without any guts to say that they are still alive and living now! All sunnis look that way and concluded THESE RIGHTOUES SERVANTS OF ALLAH SWT ARE ALL DEAD and no longer accessible to be asked for help or intercession. We Shias never look like that and we never stop on the earthly or temporal lives of our beloved Prophet(saw) and Imams(as). We look on what involves eternity so we say with confidence that though they were already dead physically yet we are confident to declare that PROPHET MUHAMMAD(SAWW) AND THE 11 IMAMS ARE NOT DEAD SPIRITUALLY, THEY ARE STILL ALIVE AND LIVING NOW! I already proved beyond reasonable doubt that PROPHET MUHAMMAD(SAWW) AND THE 11 IMAMS ARE NOT DEAD IN THE SENSE THEY NEVER CEASE TO EXIST, THEY ARE STILL ALIVE AND LIVING NOW! The next thing to be addressed is the Shia practice of asking help and intercession to our beloved Prophet(saw) and 12 Imams(as). Again already proved beyond reasonable doubt in my previous posts/presentations that asking help and intercession to someone other than Allah swt is very much allowed in Islam. THAT IS NOT HARAM OR SHIRK in Islam as what wahabi and salafi sunnis wrongly saw it. So if we continue to ask help and intercession of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the 12 Imams(as) even if they are already dead how are we sure they can hear our salutations and request to help or intercede for us? First of all, LIVING SOULS/SPIRIT IN THE OTHER DIMENSIONS (may it in the graves, barsakh or any special abode) CAN STILL HEAR US. There are several proofs from Quran and authentic hadiths that those muslims who are in graves can still hear from the grave and also become a Waseela. It is proven from other hadiths that even non muslims can hear in graves but do not have capability to reply: Proof from Al Quran # 1 Quran states: So Salih left them, s aying: O my people! I did indeed convey to you the message for which I was sent by my Lord: I gave you good counsel, but ye love not good counselors!(Quran 7:79) . Here Salih (a.s) is addressing his dead people who had already been destroyed, had dead not heard then Nauzobillah this ayah of Quran would have been illogical, secondly what is the meaning of Salih (a.s)s address? Tafsir Ibn Kathir states under this ayah These were the words of admonishment which Salih exchanged with his nation after ALLAH HAD DESTROYED THEM for

denying Him and also becoming renegades against Him, rejecting to accept the Haqq (truth) plus giving preference to misguidance over guidance. Hadrat Salih (a.s) said these words after they were DESTROYED AND THEY HEARD THE WORDS TOO In relevance to this It is narrated in the 2 books of Sahih (i.e. Bukhari and Muslim) that the Messenger (saw) defeated the kufaar in Badr [then Imam Ibn Kathir mentions the sahih hadith in which Prophet clearly said that they (dead) hear better than you (alive). [Tafsir Ibn Kathir under 7:79] Proof # 2 from Quran Quran states: Lo! those who ward off (evil), when a glamour from the devil troubleth them, they do but remember (Allahs Guidance) and behold them seers! (Quran 7:201). Imam Ibn Kathir (rah) narrates under this ayah:. A young boy used to do (a lot) of worship in Masjid, however one woman fell in love with him and she started to attract him towards herself until one day he got persuaded and came to her house, but he recalled this ayah: { Lo! those who ward off (evil), when a glamour from the devil troubleth them, they do but remember (Allahs Guidance) and behold them seers}, he fainted right over there, when he recovered he remembered the ayah again and fainted once again but this time he passed away. After his death Sayyidna Umar (ra) met his father being saddened at his death, (the boy) was buried during night, Umar (ra) took his companions along and visited his grave, he prayed there and Called the Boy saying: Whosoever feared to stand in front of his Lord then there are 2 gardens for him! Voice came from the grave O (YA) Omar (ra) Allah has granted me both the gardens. [Tafsir Ibn Kathir,Under 7:201] Proofs from Authentic Hadiths : Hadith #1 The Messenger of Allah spoke to the People (buried) in the Well saying: Have you found out that what your Lord had promised you is true? then someone exclaimed: Are you calling out to the dead! The Prophet replied: You do not hear better than they do, except they do not respond.(Sahih Bu khari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 452) Hadith #2 Allahs Messenger (may peace be upon him) let the dead bodies of the unbelievers who fought in Badr (lie unburied) for three days. He then came to them and sat by their side and called them and said: O Abu Jahl b. Hisham, O Umayya b. Khalaf, O Utba b. Rabila, O Shaiba b. Rabia, have you not found what your Lord had promised with you to be correct? As for me, I have found the promises of my Lord to be (perfectly) correct. Umar listened to the words of Allah s Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Allahs Messenger, how do they listen and respond to you? They are dead and their bodies have decayed. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, what I am saying to them, even you cannot hear more distinctly than they, but they lack the power to reply. Thenhe commanded that they should be buried in the well of Badr. [Sahih Muslim, Hadith # 6869] Note: Here the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said , even you cannot hear more distinctly than they , Hence it proves that even Kafirs who are Dead can hear more clearly then alive can or equally let alone be Muslims and Prophets (aleh islam).But Kafirs cannot reply back according to this hadith, Where as muslims have the ability to reply as proved above and will be proved further. 2 hours ago Like

Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana this is my rebuttal (2 of 3) .Hadith #3 Narrated Ibn Shihab:These were the battles of Allahs Apostle (which he fought), and while mentioning (the Badr battle) he said, While the corpses of the pagans were being thrown into the well, Allahs Apostle said (to them), Have you found what your Lord promised true? Abdullah said, Some of the Prophets companions said, O Allahs Apostle! You are addressing dead people. Allahs Apostle replied, You do not hear what I am saying, better than they. [Sahih Bukhari, Book 59, Number 360] Hadith #4 Allah has declared it forbidden for the earth to eat the bodies of the prophets. So the prophets are living and they receive

their sustenance Sunni References: 1. Ibn Majah narrated this sahih (sound) hadith in his Sunan, b. of janaiz (funerals) ch.65 (1:524#1636 -7), b. of iqamat-ussalat was-sunnah fiha (establishing prayer and its sunnahs) ch.79 (1:345#1085); 2. Abu Dawud, Sunan, b. of salat (prayer) 1:275 (#1047); 3. Nasai, Sunan, b. of jumuah (Friday prayer) 3:92; 4. Ahmad bin Hambal Musnad (4:8); 5. Ibn Hibban, as-Sahih (3:191#910); 6. Darimi, Sunan (1:307#1580); 7. Ibn Khuzaymah, as-Sahih (3:118#1733); 8. Ibn Abi Shaybah, al-Musannaf (2:516); 9. Hakim, al-Mustadrak (1:278); 10. Tabarani, al-Mujam-ul-kabir (1:217#589); and? Bayhaqi in as-Sunan-ul-kubra (3:249). Hadith #5 (Sahaba believed that they enjoyed the company of others after death) Hadith #6, Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri : Allahs Apostle said, When the funeral is ready (for its burial) and the people lift it on their shoulders, then if deceased is a righteous per son he says, Take me ahead, and if he is not a righteous one then he says, Woe to it (me)! Where are you taking it (me)? And his voice is audible to everything except human beings; and if they heard it they would fall down unconscious. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 462 ,This shows that the Dead can not only hear us, but they are also aware of what is happening in this world. And their voice is audible to everything except human beings. Hadith #7 The Prophet [salehalawaalihi wasalam] said :My life is a great good for you, you will relate about me and it will be related to you, and my death is a great good for you, your actions will be presented to me (in my grave) and if I see goodness I will praise Allah, and if see other than that I will ask forgiveness of him (for you). Sunni References: 1)Qadi `Iyad cites it in al-Shifa (1:56 of the Amman edition) 2. Suyuti said in his Manahil al-safa fi takhrij ahadith al-shifa (Beirut 1988/1408) p. 31 (#8): 3. Ibn Abi Usama cites it in his Musnad from the hadith of Bakr ibn `Abd Allah al-Mazni, 4. al-Bazzar from the hadith of Ibn Mas`ud with a sound (sahih) chain. 5. FatH al-Bri 10:415, 6. al-Mundhiris Targheeb wa al-Tarheeb 3:343, ?and Ahmad 4:484 Hadith #8 The Prophet (salehalawaalihiwasalam) Said:Whoever invokes blessings on me at my grave, I hear him, and whoever invokes blessings on me from afar, I am informed about it. Sunni References: 1. Ibn Hajar says in FatH al-Bri 6:379: 2. Abu al-Shaykh cites it with a good chain (sanad jayyid), Bayhaqi mentions it in Hayt al-anbiy with ublightuhu in the end Hadith #9 Sahih Hadith states: Sayyindina lbn Abbas narrated that Allahs Messenger passed by some graves of Madinah. He turned his face towards them, and said: Peace be on you, O people of the grave. May Allah forgive us and you. You have gone before us and we are to follow. [Sunan tirmidhi Chapter 59 Hadith # 1055] Hadith #10 Narrated Abu Hurayra I heard the Prophet say: By the one in Whose hand is Abu al -Qasims soul, `Isa ibn Maryam shall descend as a just and wise ruler. He shall destroy the cross, slay the swine, eradicate discord and grudges, and money shall be offered to him but he will not accept it. Then he shall stand at my grave side and say: Ya Muhammad! and I will answer

him. Reference: 1. Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalani cites it in al-Matalib al-`aliya (Kuwait, 1393/1973) 2. Abu Ya`la relates it with a sound (sahih) chain in his Musnad Volume No. 11, Page No. 462, Published by Dar ul Kutb aliLmiyyah; Hadith #11 Narated By AbuHurayrah: The Prophet ( ) said: If any one of you greets me, Allah returns my soul to me and I respond to the greeting. [Abu Dawud Book 004, Hadith Number 2036:] Hadith #12 Sayyidina Ibn Abbas (RA) reported that one of the companions of the Prophet (SAW) pitched a tent on a grave. He did not know that there was grave. It was the grave of human beings, who recited surah al-Mulk (#67) to the end of it. He came to the Prophet (SAW) and said, O Messenger of Allah (SAW), I pitched my tent ove r a grave without knowing that it was a grave. The man inside recited surah al-Mulk to its end. The Prophet (SAW) said, It is the rescuer. It rescues from punisment of the grave. [Tirmidhi , Chapter 9, Virtues of surah al -Mulk, # 2899] 2 hours ago Like 1

Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana this is my rebuttal (3 of 3) Hadith #13 Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: Allah's Messenger(saww) said: Whoever visits my grave after my death it is same he has visited me in my life. [Tibrani Volume 012: Hadith Number 406, Bayhaqi Shab ul Iman Volume 003: Hadith Number 489] Hadith #14 Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: Allah's Apostle (saww) said, "When the funeral is ready (for its burial) and the people lift it on their shoulders, then if the deceased is a righteous person he says, 'Take me ahead,' and if he is not a righteous one, then he says, 'Woe to it (me)! Where are you taking it (me)?' And his voice is audible to everything except human beings; and if they heard it they would fall down unconscious." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 462). **Some Objections Of the Idea that physically dead people / Living Soul / Alive Spirit Can still hear people on earth** Objection No:1 Regarding Quranic verse Quran says Verily, you cannot make the dead to hear , nor can you make the deaf to hear the call, when they flee, turning their backs(27:80 and 30:52) . The point comes when anyone (other than Allah) claims that He/She can make the dead hear in the graves. then Quran clears the point that its only Allah who can make dead hear and you can not Question : Does above verse mean that Dead (muslims and non muslims cannot hear) . Answer : This verse has more of a methaphoric meaning, secondly it refers to the kufaar or unbelievers not muslims in this case Next verse says: Nor can you lead the blind out of their error, you can only make to hear those who believe in Our Ayt, and who have submitted. [Quran 27:81 and 30:53] These verses doesnt only refute the argument regarding first verse which some put forward that dead cannot hear in any circumstances but also makes it clear that muslims can hear as Allah says himself in the next verse , you can only make to hear those who believe in Our Ayt, now let us go and check various tafsirs regarding these verses . Tafsir ibn e khateer

for verse 27:80/1 and 30:52/3 says: (Verily, you cannot make the dead to hear) meaning, you cannot cause them to hear anything that will benefit them. The same applies to those over whose hearts is a veil and in whose ears is deafness of disbelief. Allah says: (nor can you make the deaf to hear the call, when they flee, turning their backs. Nor can you lead the blind out of their error. You can only make to hear those who believe in Our Ayat, so they submit (became Muslims).) meaning, those who have hearing and insight will respond to you, those whose hearing and sight are of benefit to their hearts and who are humble towards Allah and to the Message that comes to them through the mouths of the Messengers, may peace be upon them.[end of tafsir] From above it seems these verses are not for those in Grave even , its tal king about non muslims in the world who dont get hidaya/guidance and dont listen to word of Allah with an open heart, whose hearts are dead and cannot hear, Hence some people just quote these verses out of context without going any correct tafsirs or not reading the verses in their correct context . Objection No:2 Regarding Quranic verse Quran states: Nor are (alike) the living and the dead. Verily, Allh makes whom He will hear, but you cannot make hear those who are in graves. [HQ 35:22] In above verse the first part is talking about both disbelievers and muslims when it comes to the words Nor are (alike) the living and the dead. In the second part of the verse, Allah says Verily, Allh makes whom He will hear, this clearly indicated that whom All ah (swt) wills he can hear and its not impossible , its already proved from several hadiths that not only believers but even non muslims can hear better then living from the grave, Tafsir Ibn Kathir on this verse (Verily, Allah makes whom He wills to hear,) means. He guides them to listen to the proof and accept it and adhere it. (but you cannot make hear those who are in graves.) means, `just as the dead as disbelievers and ended up in the graves, so too you cannot help these idolators who are decreed to be doomed, and you cannot guide them.[end of tafsir] The above Tafsir clearly shows the verse only talks about guidance and accepting the truth, not about hearing in the grave because it is an acceptable fact that dead cannot accept Islam once they are in the grave. The following verses will finally counclude that those who undergone physical death(being killed) and now already in the other dimension may it in the graves, barsakh or any special abode are actually alive and not deadalive means they can still feel and hear: "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: 'They are dead.' Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not. (The Noble Quran, 2:154)" "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they are living, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord. They rejoice in the Bounty provided by Allah: And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve. They are glorirfied in the Grace and Bounty from Allah, and in the fact that Allah suffereth not the reward of the faithful to be lost (in the least ). (The Noble Quran, 3:169-171)" END OF MY REBUTTAL 2 hours ago Like

Altar Musa PAUMANHIN SA MODERATOR PATI KAY BRO, Abu Jaiyana AT KAY Muhammad Ali. ANG PAGKAMATAY NI PROPETA MUHAMMAD(SAW) AT ANG 11 SHIA IMAMS ANG TINUTUKOY NILA AY BUHAY PARIN SA KANILANG KINAROROONAN NILA NGAYON MAGKAIBA ANG BUHAY NILA SA MUNDO KUMPARA SA KANILANG BUHAY SA KABILANG BUHAY. BUHAY SA MUNDO AT BUHAY SA KABILANG BUHAY AY MAGKAIBA.

about an hour ago Like 1

Muhammad Ali Altar Musa TAMA KA JAN KAYA ANG TAMANG SABIHIN NATIN AY E EMPHASIZE NATIN NA BUHAY SILA SA KABILANG BUHAY HINDI PATAY SA MUNDO...SI SHAITAN LAMANG ANG GUSTO E REMBER ANG RASUL(SAWW) AT 12 IMAMS NG ISLAM AS PATAY NA SA MUNDO AT USELESS NA.....GUSTO NG SHAITAN ANG ATTITUDE NINYO MGA WAHABI AT SALAFI KASI NAKATOTOK LAMANG KAYO SA MUNDO EH ANG MUNDO AY PANSAMANTALA LAMANG AT HINDI DITO MAGTATAPOS ANG ATING LANDAS...KAYA SA INYO PATAY ANG RASUL(SAWW) AT 11 IMAMS AT HINDI NA MAPAPAKINABANGAN.....SHIRK PA NGA SA INYO KAPAG BIBISITA SA GRAVES NG RASUL(SAWW) AT IMAMS(AS) PARA MAGBIGAY SALUTATIONS OR MAKIKI-USAP NA IPAGDASAL ANG MGA TAO NAIWAN PA SA MUNDO....SA INYO WALA NA SILBI ANG RASUL(SAWW) AT 11 IMAMS.....YAN ANG RESULTA SA PAGTAKWIL NINYO SA 12 IMAMS FROM AHL-BAYT OF RASUL(SAWW)... about an hour ago Edited Like

Altar Musa LAHAT NG PATAY SA MUNDO AY MABUBUHAY MULI SA KABILANG BUHAY KAYA TAWAG SA KABILA AY =====KABILANG BUHAY SA ARABIC TERM AY 'QIYAMAH===== about an hour ago Edited Like

Muhammad Ali ANO BA GUSTO MO ISISGAW SA MUNDO: PATAY ANG RASUL(SAWW) OR BUHAY ANG RASUL(SAWW)???? about an hour ago Like

Altar Musa ANG RASUL AY NAMATAY NA PERO BUHAY SIYA SA KABILANG BUHAY TULAD MO KAPAG NAMATAY KA MABUBUHAY KA MULI. about an hour ago Like

Altar Musa ANG KATAWAN MO AY MAIIWAN ANG KALULUWA MO ANG HUHUSGAAN about an hour ago Like

Muhammad Ali OO NGA...SO ANO NGAYON ANG GUSTO MO ISIGAW SA MUNDO: PATAY ANG RASUL(SAWW) OR BUHAY ANG RASUL(SAWW)????

about an hour ago Like

Altar Musa PATAY NA ANG RASUL NGAYON WALA NA SIYA NASA PARAISO SIYA NGAYON===ALLAHO ALAM! about an hour ago Like

Altar Musa KAPAG NAMATAY KA AY MABUBUHAY KA MULI PARA HUSGAAN. about an hour ago Like

Altar Musa ANG KULIT MOH! about an hour ago Like

Altar Musa KAHIT SINO ANG MAMATAY SA ATIN AY MABUBUHAY MULI SA KABILANG BUHAY. about an hour ago Like

Altar Musa DID U UNDERSTAND FOR WHAT I MEAN? about an hour ago Like

Muhammad Ali ANO SIYA SA PARAISO PATAY O BUHAY? HEHEHE about an hour ago Like

Muhammad Ali AYAW MO TALAGANG SABIHIN BUHAY ANG RASUL(SAWW) NGAYON HA.....BAKIT KAYA? KASI PATAY NA SIYA SA MUNDO? EH SA PARAISO KAMO? about an hour ago Like


Altar Musa WALAHI ADHEEM! SAKSI ANG KATAAS TAASAN ANG ATIN RABB! ANG PROPETA MUHAMMAD(SAW) SIYA ANG PATAY NA! SIYA ANG NASA MABUTING KINAROROONAN NGAYON! 58 minutes ago Like

Muhammad Ali HEHEHE... PATAY RIN BA SIYA SA KINAROROONAN NIYA NGAYON? 57 minutes ago Like

Abu Jaiyana Ang Isigaw mo muhammad ali ay kumanta ka ng malakas, Alive, alive, alive forever more, my imams are alive, alive forever more hehehe joke lang ha. Natatawa lang kasi ako sa rebuttal ni Muhammad Ali, hindi rebuttals ang gimawa nya kundi new presentation. Ang rebuttal kasi ay follow up at elaboration ng mga naipresenta na sa presentation at cross exam, hindi magdadagdag ng bagong ebidens otherwise wala nang katapusang rebuttals ito. Kung hindi mo naman tatalakayin ang bagong ebidens nya sasabihin na naman na iniwasan ang mga ebidens nya ano ba naman yan kuya? 48 minutes ago via mobile Like 1

Prince Salman ganito na lng ibigay niyo na ang conclusion ninyong dalawa..para makapag-umpisa magtanong ang gusto mag-tanong...okey ba sa inyo.. 45 minutes ago Like

Muhammad Ali Prince Salman antayin natin rebuttal ni Abu... 43 minutes ago Like

Muhammad Ali Abu Jaiyana part nga ng rebuttals ko yong mga ebedensiya...eh paano kita e rebut or matatawag ba na rebutted kita if hindi ako magbigay ng evidences? hehehe 40 minutes ago Like

Prince Salman tapos ka na ba sa ebidensya mo Muhammad Ali?..o mayroon pa ipost mo na, para hindi lalong humaba ang usapan ninyo...okey??? 37 minutes ago Like

Eli Madale Allahu Akbar...very nice Brod Abu Jaiyana..... 24 minutes ago Like 1

Abu Jaiyana REBUTTAL Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem I begin by mentioning the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. I testify the there is no deity worthy of any worship except Allah alone without any partner. I further testify that Muhammad is Allahs slave and Messenger. The best of speech is the speech of Allah and the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad s.a.w. the worst of all affairs is innovation in the religion of Allah for all innovations in the religion is misguidance, and all misguidance will ultimately lead into the fire of Hell. Truth has come and falsehood perishes for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish. Ladies and Gentlemen, let us now filter the TRUTH from FALSEHOOD: THE ADMISSION OF MUHAMMAD ALI I as have pointed out in my opening presentation as well as in my responses to my opponents cross -examination, Muhammad Ali ignorantly quoted ayat of the Quran and made exegesis out of based on his personal opinion. However, when I asked him about the contextual meaning of the ayah which says that the Martyrs are alive, Mr. Muhammad Ali ADMITTED that Allah was referring to the souls of the martyrs who had experienced DEATH, and that the word ALIVE there simply indicates or simply telling us that when a person DIES, his soul doesnt cease to exist, and that i n case of a martyr, his soul will be in Paradise which absolutely agrees with our definition and explanation about death. In other words, Muhammad Alis usage of the ayah for his argument that their 11 Imams are not dead is clearly a fallacy called CONTEXTOMY. He cited the ayah, interpret it out of context and then apply his erroneous interpretation of the ayah to support his argument. Alhamdulillah, we can see that Muhammad Ali is now being enlightened. THE PHYSICAL DEATH AND THE SPIRITUAL DEATH ALIBI

Mr. Arsenio a.k.a. Muhammad Ali cant refute the definition of the term DEATH which I provided in my presentation, he eventually agreed to it BUT he virtually said that thats just physical death. He introduced another concept which he calls a s spiritual death. Point #1 I asked him to produce these terminologies, physical death and spiritual death from the Quran or from the authentic ahadith did he provide any? The answer is no! Therefore it is just his own personal concept which he may have heard from someone. Folks, there is no such thing as physical death, and spi ritual death in the Quran and in the Sunnah; it is just some peoples weird imagination. Point #2 if Muhammad Ali argues that the separation of body and soul is what he meant as physical death, then what does he mean by SPIRITUAL Death? He already have admitted and agreed to my argument that when a person dies, his body will decay but the spirit or soul wouldnt cease to exist So how could his so-called spiritual death take place? If he would say that spiritual death means punishment or agony of the spirit, then it is not the opposite of physical death; he is contrasting or comparing apples with oranges so to speak, therefore his argument doesnt add up. The worst thing is that he simply introduced the term but he never explained to us what he meant by it, and how does it run with the flow of his arguments. It is no more than a lame alibi. MR. MUHAMMAD ALIS FALSE ACCUSATION. Mr. Arsenio a.k.a. Muhammad Ali accused me of posting a wrong question (question #1) that somehow I misrepresented his argument that he is saying that dead means to cease to exist. That is 100% false accusation folks. In my question #1, I provided the background of my question. Here is my question #1 =========== 1. You admitted in your presentation that the Prophet as well as your 11 imams had died yet you argued that they are not dead because they are living in the state of barzakh. Can you provide for us any Islamic reference which says that BEING DEAD MEANS TO CEASE TO EXIST IN BOTH BODY AND SOUL? ============ So I was not saying there that HE SAID that being dead means to cease to exist in both body and soul. I was just asking him whether he could provide any Islamic reference which says that being dead means to cease to exist in both body and soul. I fully knew that he could not produce any even with the help of Google because that concept is rubbish as far as the Abrahamic faiths are concerned. The reasons why asked that question are: a. To point out to him that his argument that since the souls are still alive or doesnt cease to exist after death therefore they are not dead is FLAWED. In fact that is an extremely rubbish argument because if we follow that line of argument, then we can also say that nobody would be dead or nobody would die because the souls of the good and evil people would not cease to exist anyway. It would be wrong for anyone to say that Muhammad Alis great, great, grandfather is dead because we know that his soul did not cease to exist. Do you see how rubbish this argument is? b. To point out to Muhammad Ali that the definition of death which I provided is the genuine and agreed upon definition therefore it is the DEFAULT DEFINITION of the word DEATH which is being discussed here and not his unexplained physical and spiritual death concept. Therefore, it is just a matter of poor reading comprehension on the part of Mr. Arsenio a.k.a. Muhammad Ali that made him think that I am misrepresenting his argument. 6 minutes ago Like 1

Abu Jaiyana FUNNY YET INTERESTING What is funny in his response to this question is that he said that THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL DEATH because he agrees that the spirit continues to exist. What is FUNNY in this confession of his is that since there is no spiritual death, therefore Im correct all along in my definition of death, and his so-called spiritual death defense is nothing but a lame alibi because why would he advanced the word spiritual death in CONTRAST TO PHYSICAL DEATH when THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SPIRITUAL DEATH according to Muhammad Ali himself? So if there is no such thing as spiritual death, then he must agree that the meaning of physical death that he is talking about and the definition of death which I provided is the same thing and therefore the basis and criterion to judge whether or not the Prophet and the 11 Imams are dead. Based on his physical death and my definition that death occurs when the soul is separated from the body, and that the souls of Prophet Muhammad and the 11 Imams experienced it, it therefore necessarily follow that they all have died even though their souls did not cease to exist. Muhammad Alis arguments and defense is a big, big MESS. Abu Usama spoke the truth when he said A ny evidence that the shia would put forward as proof for their claim is proof enough to refute their claim. DISHONESTY IN ANSWERING QUESTIONS In my question #4 this was my question: ========== 4. Can you provide any ayah from the Quran or from the authentic ahadith in which THE BELIEVERS ARE TOLD TO SUPPLICATE TO ALLAH VIA THE DEAD PEOPLE such as the Prophet s.a.w or via your dead Imams? ======== Mr. Muhammad Ali has dishonestly cut off my question just like what he did in his cross-exam. He purposely left out the other half of my question. TO SUPPLICATE TO ALLAH VIA THE DEAD PEOPLE such as the Prophet s.a.w or via your dead Imams? I am fully aware of the ahadith and ayah he cited that people could make tawasool. However, I already have pointed out in my opening presentation that tawasool is allowed and was practiced by the companions of the Prophet through an ALIVE person. The evidences for this are the ayat and the ahadith which he cited. TAWASOOL VIA DEAD MEN??? The Bani Israel asked Moses a.s. invoke to Allah That was when Moses was still ALIVE 7:34 When the Brothers of Yusuf a.s. asked their Father Yaqub to ask forgiveness for them That was when Yaqub was still ALIVE 12:97-98 This is called tawasool; it is done through the merit of an ALIVE person, not through the dead no matter how pious. Misused ayat for tawasool: Concept of intercession 20:109, et cetera The concept of intercession is not the same with tawasool. There are people who will be granted by Allah to intercede on the Day of Judgment NOT because people made tawasool through them in this world but because of their special merit, that includes all the Prophets, Martyrs, Hafiz of Quran, Sawm, the Quran, Friendship for the sake of Allah et cetera. It should be noted also that though the Prophet would intercede for his Ummah, not everyone will be saved. The famous hadith about the Prophets pool where the Angels will throw away many of those who want to drink from the pool. The Prophet would say They are from among my Ummah. The Angels would reply You dont know Muhammad what innovation they have done after you left Also in the Quran, Prophet Ibrahim will intercede for his Father Azar, but Allah will not grant his intercession because his father died as a Mushrik.

WOULD THE SHIA BE SAVED BECAUSE THEY ARE MAKING TAWASOOL THROUGH THE DEAD MEN? The answer is NO. They will be thrown in to Hell like the father of Ibrahim s.a. for making SHIRK i.e. tawasool through the dead Imams and the Prophet. Therefore Tawasool and intercession are absolutely two different things. Muhammad Ali DID NOT UNDERSTAND what he was citing as evidences for him. They are in fact evidences against him. The Prophets are still alive praying in their graves, even if we accept this as authentic, what type of prayer do they make, and for whom? There is a famous hadith about the Prophets during the Day of Judgement, the people will go to Adam, to Noah, to Ibrahim, to Moses, to Issa peace be upon them all to ask Allah to commence the reckoning, but each one of them will refuse and confess their respective faults and each of them will say that Allah is very angry now such that He was not this angry before, go to so and so Prophet, I am concerned about myself. Can we now say that the Prophets are praying for themselves for their fear of Allah? Yes, of course! Can we also say that the Prophets are praying in their graves because they are serving as third party channel to Allah for the Shia? Of course NOT! There is no evidence, let alone commandment that supplications are allowed via third party channel i.e dead people. If the Prophets who are higher than any other human being in the sight of Allah cant serve as third party channel to Allah because they are dead, how much more those who are dead men who are not Prophets of God? Also the hadith about the Prophet s.a.w. were told to supplicate for the martyrs thats correct, but the Prophet was still ALIVE that time Mr. Arsenio a.k.a. Muhammad Ali. Please bother yourself, read the Seerah of the Prophet for your own sake! 6 minutes ago Like 1

Abu Jaiyana SHIAISM COPYCAT OF CATHOLICISM AND PAGANISM!!! Finally, the question #5 for Muhammad Ali: ========== 5. Wouldnt it be BETTER IF YOU SUPPLICATE TO ALLAH DIRECTLY as the Prophet had taught his companions, instead of SUPPLICATING TO ALLAH VIA IMAMS since Allah knows better than your Imams could what you would say to them, if they could in fact hear your supplications and that you will be charged of polytheism? ========== I was giving him the HINT that the Prophets way of supplicating to Allah as well as his companions was to supplicate to Allah directly without any third party, but he didnt understand that fully, so he confessed that they have different ways of supplicating to Allah: 1. Direct: Pray directly to Allah well, thats the Sunnah of the Prophet; we Ahlus -Sunnah will agree on that 100% 2. Indirect (virtually the same with mixed): because sometimes or oftentimes we are not sure of our worthiness so we ask the help of the Prophet and the 12 Imams, et cetera, et cetera. Well, that is Catholicism that is not Islam. How about these: For God is so holy and we are not holy so we cant approach God directly, we need a savior, our Lord Jesus Christ All these we ask to you Oh Father in the name of your son, our savior Jesus Christ Sound familiar? Of course! That is TRINITARIAN Christianity.

Trinitarian Christianity is better than Shiaism because they believe that their savior rose from the dead therefore physically ALIVE while the Shia Imams are dead. The Christian tawasool is shirk for putting a mediator between the supplicant and God, then the Shia tawasool is much, much greater Shirk because their mediators are dead people ! Those who take awliya besides Him (say), 'We worship them only that THEY MAY BRING US NEAR TO ALLAH.' Verily, Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allah guides not him who is a liar , and a disbeliever. 39:3 They worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say, 'THESE ARE OUR INTERCESSORS WITH ALLAH.'10: 18 (It is known from this part of the verse that) The mushrikeen acknowledged that those whom they worshiped did not benefit or harm. Rather, they took them as intercessors, i.e., intermediaries before Allah, in order to fulfill their needs. So they sacrificed and vowed for them. If you were to debate with the grave worshippers of today, such as the Jafari Shia or 12 Imamites, they too repeat the justification of the Arab pagans word-for-word saying, 'I know that this wali or righteous man does not harm or benefit, but he is a righteous person and I want him to intercede with Allah on my behalf.' The Shia merely believed that their Imams intercede and make Shafa'ah for them with Allah. This was the belief of the disbelievers. "Verily, Allah forgives not Shirk (i.e. Associating partners with Him in worship), but He forgives except that anything else) to whom He pleases." 4:48 THE PROPER AND ISLAMIC WAY OF SUPPLICATING TO ALLAH S.W.T. Pray or supplicate to Him directly without any mediator or intercessor even if you are the greatest sinner on the entire the universe. Allah said: And your Lord hath said: Pray unto Me and I will hear your prayer. Lo! those who scorn My service, they will enter hell, disgraced.40:60 Those who, when they have committed Fahishah (illegal sexual activity, etc.,) or wronged themselves with evil, remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their sins; - and none can forgive sins but Allah - and do not persist in what (wrong) they have done, while they know. 3: 135 Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, Who forgiveth all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.39:53 HOW TO SUPPLICATE TO ALLAH According to the Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w. Any act that was not taught by the Messenger is false and rejected because it is an innovation. The Prophet said, "Whosoever performs an act which we have not commanded, it is rejected." Sahih Muslim. Whosoever introduces in this affair of ours that which is not from it, will have it rejected. Agreed upon SUMMARIZED REBUTTAL AGAINST MUHAMMAD ALIS REBUTTAL Folks, I was so worried about the length of my rebuttal because I refuted all my opponents argument and his evidences which he had presented. My problem becomes worsen when my opponent made a new presentation instead of a rebuttal because it would further lengthen my rebuttal. My opponent seems to be ignorant about the difference between presentation of arguments and rebutting the opponents argument. Anyway, in his rebuttal, all that he newly presented were virtually the same concept of what he had presented. So this is my summarized rebuttal to his rebuttal:

 Muhammad Ali still agree with my definition of death, therefore based on my definition which he considers as physical death, it is the criterion whether or not a person is considered dead or not. It should be noted also that Muhammad Ali said that there is no such thing as spiritual death in contrast to physical death, therefore his argument that since the souls of those who have died still lives therefore they cant be considered as dead sti ll hangs in the air because if we dont consider those who have died as dead because their souls did not cease to exist, then there is no real concept of death because everyone be wicked or pious, his/her soul wouldnt cease to exist after death. Muhammad Ali also merely repeated his mistake about tawasool Tawasool is through the merit of an alive person, not through any dead men. He also didnt give us any authentic reference which states that their dead Imams can hear their supplications to them and present it to Allah (Shia way of tawasool) Muhammad Ali still did not clarify as to what do dead men could hear in their graves, sounds and noise or supplications of people that they may present to Allah. He simply argued that dead men can hear something in their graves. He did not also refute the ayat which he demanded me to provide in his cross exam such as: 1. Verily, those whom you call upon besides Allah are SLAVES LIKE YOU. So call upon them and let them answer you if you are truthful 7:194 2. And NOT EQUAL ARE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD. Indeed, Allah causes to hear whom He wills, BUT YOU CANNOT MAKE HEAR THOSE IN THE GRAVES. 35:22 3. And who is MORE ASTRAY than one who CALLS ON (INVOKES) BESIDES Allh, such as will not answer him till the Day of Resurrection, and who are (even) UNAWARE OF THEIR CALLS (invocations) to them? Al-Ahqaf ayah 5 If there are points which I havent refuted, please ask me after the conclusions are done. Jazakallahu Khair about a minute ago Like

Muhammad Ali Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem I begin by mentioning the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. I testify the there is no deity worthy of any worship except Allah alone without any partner. I further testify that Muhammad is Allahs slave and Messenger. The best of speech is the speech of Allah and the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad s.a.w. the worst of all affairs is innovation in the religion of Allah for all innovations in the religion is misguidance, and all misguidance will ultimately lead into the fire of Hell. Truth has come and falsehood perishes for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish. Ladies and Gentlemen, let us now filter the TRUTH from FALSEHOOD: Conclusion #1 My wahabi opponent committed again a fallacy by ignorantly propagating that t he martyrs verses stated in HQ 2:154 and HQ 3:169-171 are not applicable to Prophet Muhammad(saww) and the 11 Imams because he is assuming they were not martyrs. That would be a very unfortunate conclusion base from wrong perspective. Definitely they are all martyrs. We in Shia Islam believe that they were all martyrs. Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the 9 Imams were killed by poison and 2 of the Imams were killed by swords. They were either killed or murdered, hence they were all martyrs. Anyway, taken for granted he is correct in his wrong assumption that they were not martyrs, still, the facts stated in those verses still applies to Prophets like Prophet Muhammad(saww) and the 11 Imams as they were far greater than ordinary martyrs. Our 12 Imams are the 12 genuinely appointed Imams/caliphs/Leaders of Islam who will lead the Ummah until Day

of Judgment. No one can deny that fact that even sunni scholars will agree as well: 1) Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (Allah have mercy on him) states in his monumental commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari i.e. Fath al-Bari: "When the living of the martyrs is proven from the text of the Quran, then this is also proven from a analogical point of view. And the Prophets are superior then the martyrs" [Fath al-Bari, Volume 006: Page No. 379] 2) Qadhi Shawkawni writes: "In the Qur'an it is mentioned that martyrs are alive and food is provided for them. The Prophets and righteous people are a lot higher in status than them so what will be their place? It has been proven through Ahadith that Prophets are alive in their graves. Both Imam at-Tirmidhi and Imam al-Bayhaqi have said that these are authentic Ahadith" [Nayl al-Awtar, Volume 003, Page No. 82] The problem of my opponent is of course his fallacious arguments. He always assumed he is right, the one who has the correct beliefs and assumptions without any valid proofs whatsover. My opponent accused me of understanding the verses of the Quran according to my own opinion. Well, if he knew it, that assumption also applies to him. Again he always assumed that our Prophet (saww) and 11 Imams were not martyrs so he always failed to credit that those verses (HQ 2:154 and HQ 3:169-171) also applies to Prophet Muhammad(saww) and the 11 Imams. 6 hours ago Like

Muhammad Ali Conclusion #2 It is very funny that my opponent expected me to refute his very natural definition of what is death. That kind of definition has no need for refutation as I also agree to it as well. What is unfortunate is that he regarded by 2 valid terminologies (physical death and spiritual death) as just an alibi despite of the fact that those terms are very much rooted to the commonly accepted truth that a human being is composed of (1) physical body and (2) soul/spirit. The physical body is earthly and will die. I called that death physical death and of course that is perfectly valid and correct. What about of the second component of human being -the soul/spirit? Does it dies also so that we can have a term such as spiritual death? But unlike our physical bodies, our soul/spirit is created by Allah swt for eternity so it cannot die hence there is no such thing as spiritual death or death of our soul. Because our souls cannot be dead hence it is perfectly valid to say that our 11 Imams are not dead because they have eternal souls. Yet my opponent branded by simplification as weird and lame alibi. He failed to realized that I used those terms for him to avoid confusion because I saw him very confused to the extent that he knows the body will die therefore conclude our 11 Imams are dead but forget that the souls will not die and failed to conclude that our 11 Imams are not dead. Unless I have to do something for him to understand those basic and common truth there is no chance of letting him understand and escape confusion. He agreed with my position the 11 Imams are dead but to avoid confusion it must be emphasized that it pertain to the physical body only for him to understand my position that the 11 Imams are not dead because their souls will never die. It is obvious he is confused unless he will accept my 2 valid terminologies to address the body that will die and soul that will not die. So how can he differentiate respectively the status of the physical body and the status of our soul/spirit and to clearly account each of them with fairness if he will reject my terminologies as just lame alibi? He did consider the physical body and concluded the 11 Imams were dead! That is correct but is that all? What about the souls of the 11 Imams? Unfortunately he is shy to state that the 11 Imams are in fact still alive and not dead. It is clear that he is just wanted to shout to the whole world that the 11 Imams(as) were dead and so now rendered useless because their physical bodies were dead. That is how unfair he is. He is for sure only looking from the point of view of the physical body and deceitfully left out the souls of the 11 Imams for him not to be obliged to shout as well that the 11 Imams are not spiritually dead because our souls will never die!. Has my opponent provide any statement about our 11 Imams with regards of their living souls? Unfortunately he is silent about it. In contrast to his approach, I preferred to shout to the whole world that our 11 Imams were not dead but always alive base on the perspective of their living and eternal souls. Because they are in fact living and spiritually not dead I conclude that the 11 Imams today and until day of judgement are not spiritually dead and are not useless individuals. They are still useful and that would explain why many Shia Muslims still visiting their graves to give salutations and to ask for help and intercession. Of course as I already proven, asking help and intercession to the servants of Allah swt is not haram in Islam. Conclusion #3

It is indeed very unfortunate that my opponents had regarded asking help or intercession of the 11 Imams as haram or shirk because asking help from physically dead people in their graves are not allowed in Islam according to his own sectarian belief. That is the problem of disregarding the basic Islamic doctrine that the souls of our 11 Imams are not dead but continue to live and they can hear and pray in their graves. Proofs of these are already providing in my previous presentation. Another thing very unfortunate in the part of my opponent is that he committed bidaah by inventing his own law that tawassul of the dead men is not valid. Did Allah swt or His prophet said that? The answer is no! Adding insult to an injury, he did arrive on that funny law of him because of his one-sided point of view seeing the 11 Imams only in the perspective of their temporal physical bodies that is why he concluded they are dead and useless people. He utterly disregard the facts stated in hadiths that servants of Allah swt are still useful even if they are in their graves. What about in the perspective of their living souls? Of course they are surely alive and not dead! Another unfortunate is that I already ga ve hadiths and verses of the quran proving that asking somebody (third party) to pr ay for you is allowed in Islam, yet he concluded it is not allowed. My opponent needs to review that topic. He insist it is not allowed for the physically dead people. Did Allah swt and His Prophet prohibit us to ask help to His physically dead Prophets and Imams despite knowing the fact that they are spiritually alive and not dead? No evidence that Allah swt ordered us not to ask help from His physically dead righteous servants. 6 hours ago Edited Like

Muhammad Ali Conclusion #4 My opponent lambasted my belief that in Islam it is allowed to ask somebody to pray for us as like catholicims. Well in that part the catholics are correct because it is correct as per the doctrine of Islam. I already provided verses of the quran to support my view yet my opponent is simply blind and cannot hear. He is always making hi s own law and attribute it for Islam like the practice of umar al-khatab the founder of sunnism. I will repeat those verses below for him to grasp them: 1) The people asked Prophet Muhmmad(saww) to pray for them and Allah never say it is shirk: " And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful." Holy Quran 4:64. (Note: this verse testified that the people asked prophet Muhammad(saw) for help or intercession and the Prophet (saw) had prayed/intercede for them and was accepted by Allah swt) 2) The people asked Prophet Masa(as) to pray for them and Allah never say it is shirk: "And when the punishment descended upon them, they said, "O Moses, invoke for us your Lord by what He has promised you. If you [can] remove the punishment from us, we will surely believe you, and we will send with you the Children of Israel." But when We removed the punishment from them until a term which they were to reach, then at once they broke their word." Holy Quran 7:134-135 3) The sons asked their father to pray for them and Allah never say it is shirk: "O our father, ask forgiveness for our sins, verily we are sinners. He said: 'Soon I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lor d. Verily He is oft-forgiving, most merciful'." ( HQ 12:97-98). Conclusion #5 My opponent is correct in declaring that our 11 Imams were dead yet he failed to simplify and clarify it. He failed to add that it simply referring to a mere physical death. I declare as well that our 11 Imams are not dead therefore still alive and living. I clarified it by stressing they are not dead spiritually because our souls/spirit cannot die. Therefore not only they are not spiritually dead, they are in fact to live forever and ever! He asked me where did I got that terminologies? Well, that is simply derived from the two component of human beings : physical body and soul (or spirit). Physical body will die and so our 11 Imams are dead. The souls will not die and so our 11 Imams are not dead as well. Of course my opponent was surprised of my declaration! He did hear of it first time because he intentionalt do not bother that our souls will not die! My sort of advice to my opponents is that void adding more bidaah doctrines in Islam. For exa mple there is no such thing

as prohibiting people to ask or request the physically dead yet spiritually alive servants of Allah swt (like prophets and 12 Imams) to pray or intercede us yet you shamelessly issued a verdict that it is haram or not allowed. I can summarized your point of view by this: your eyes only focus in the lenses of temporal earthly perspective to that extent that any person may it Prophet or not will become useless once they will experience physical death. They are already in their graves and nothing important to you despite of the fact that the people in the graves are still living specially the servants of Allah swt like his Prophets and 11 Imams. END OF MY CONCLUSION 6 hours ago Edited Like

Abu Jaiyana CONCLUSION I begin by mentioning the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. I testify the there is no deity worthy of any worship except Allah alone without any partner. I further testify that Muhammad is Allahs slave and Messenger. Truth has come and falsehood perishes for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish. Ladies and gentlemen, In my presentation, I already said that I dont need to present a lot of evidences that Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. and the Shias 11 Imams are dead because my opponent had already admitted that they were all dead in literal sense of the word. When he realized that it was a big mistake on his part, he persistently argued that he was not talking about death the way I and many people understood it i.e. departing from this world. So we ask the question WHAT KIND OF DEATH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THEN Muhammad Ali??? Is there any death that he spoke about? The answer is NONE! Oh by the way, he spoke about spiritual death. WHAT IS SPIRITUAL DEATH Mr. Arsenio a.k.a. Muhammad Ali? Please define your term! Muhammad Ali said that there is NO SUCH THING AS SPIRITUAL DEATH because spirits dont cease to exist. Therefore, he is forced to go with my definition of death because he didnt not and cannot give any alternative definition. Premise 1. My definition dead/death/die is, when the soul is separated from the body by the Angel of Death (Malakal Mawt) we say that the person has died tough his soul doesnt cease to exist. Premise 2. The souls of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. and the 11 Imams have separated from their respective bodies but their souls didnt cease to exist. Premise 3. Therefore, Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. and the 11 Imams are dead. As for his defense that their Imams are not dead because their souls did not cease to exist, thats RUBBISH!!! No theist on earth understood that death means to cease to exist. All theists understood that death is a mere departure of the soul from the body. With regards to the dead Imams or even the Prophet s.a.w. hearing the supplications of the Shia and intercede in their

behalf to Allah, we dont see any shadow of evidence for that, let alone explicit evidence. The only defense presented by my opponent is that newly dead people can hear NOISE which I already have confirmed. He hasnt provided any evidence that the dead can hear supplications even after the inter rogation of Munkar and Naqir has commenced. On the contrary, I have provided explicit evidence from the Quran that Allah clearly says that dead people in their graves cant hear any supplications, let alone help the supplicant. 1. Verily, those whom you call upon besides Allah are SLAVES LIKE YOU. So call upon them and let them ANSWER YOU if you are truthful 7:194 2. And not equal are the living and the dead. Indeed, Allah causes to hear whom He wills, BUT YOU CANNOT MAKE HEAR THOSE IN THE GRAVES. 35:22 3. And who is MORE ASTRAY than one who CALLS ON (INVOKES) BESIDES Allh, such as will not answer him till the Day of Resurrection, and who are (even) UNAWARE OF THEIR CALLS (invocations) to them? Al-Ahqaf ayah 5 What is interesting with the link used given by Muhammad Ali which he copied despite the prohibition of the rule about copy and paste from websites, the title of the book written by Al Jibaly is FROM DEATH TILL RESURRECTION very funny! Muhammad Ali plagiarized the content of the book, but forgot to read the title. AHLUL BIDAH (Shia) LOVES AHLUS -SUNNAH I am also happy that my opponent copied the Ahlus-Sunnahs way of making introduction in speeches. I am accused by this ignorant Shia of being a Wahhabi yet he copied word-for-word my introduction. Muhammad Ali : You know what AbuJaiyana, I hate you because you are a Wahhabi. Guess what, I like the Wahhabi way of making introduction, I will imitate them word-for-word. Interesting, right? SUNNAH, BIDAH, OR SHIRK Tawasool through an aliv e person is Sunnah. What is bidah, and even Shirk is tawasool through a dead person. Muhammad Ali provided us all the evidences that it is allowed to make tawasool through an alive person. What he failed to provide for us is a piece of evidence in which tawasool through a dead person. If the Prophet didnt do or command it, and the Companions of the Prophet also didnt practice it, then that is 100% Biah. Had it been good or allowed, the Prophet would have commanded it and the Sahaba would have done it. Perhaps Muhammad Ali doesnt know the difference between Sunnah and Bidah. I can give him a free lecture for that. MUSHRIK (POLYTHEIST) BY CONFESSION This is the worst yet ludicrous part. I thought that my opponent, Muhammad Ali, would be offended when I pointed out the similarities of the belief and way of worship of the Catholicism and Shiaism because Catholics are technically Mushriks though they are generally called Ahlul Kitab because of their worship of Jesus and made him intercessor/mediator between God and men. What a surprise! Muhammad Ali AGREES with them totally!!! What else can we say, except that Muhammad Ali is a BLATANT MUSHRIK based on his own confession? ================================ I thank Allah s.w.t for this opportunity given to me to defend Tawheed from Shirk of any kind shape or form. I also would like to thank our Moderator Prince Salman for his effort and time in this debate, as well as those who are following this debate and those who would be reading this debate. This will be uploaded in pdf form at www.scribd.com and also in our

debate group Ahlus-Sunnah vs Shia Debate Series, you can download this file free of any charge. Jazakallahu Khair.

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Ahlus-Sunnah Vs. Shiah Debate Series

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