A week ago I wrote about a Tooele woman ordered to serve her full 15-year prison sentence for child

abuse homicide. Connie Jean Long and her husband caused their 5-month-old son to suffocate in 2005 after stuffing a pacifier in his mouth and wrapping his head with an afghan. She first went to prison in July 2005 and was paroled in January 2009. She returned to prison in February 2010 and was paroled for the second time four months later. But Long again violated terms of her release and was brought back to prison in April 2012. The Utah Board of Pardons and Parole held a parole hearing for Long on Oct. 1. About a week later, the board decided Long will not be released until January 2020. On the left is a Scribd file containing a transcript, with minor redactions, of the October board hearing. The breaks between sections are intended to make reading the transcript easier. I am sharing it to show the complexity of the situations the boards hearing officers sometimes encounter. Long is a troubled woman, no doubt. Thats not the question. I hope that readers will focus on the policy questions cases such as this one pose. Are Utahs mental health and prison systems adequately equipped and funded to help people such as Long so they dont hurt themselves or, as in this case, innocent children? What programs are available to offenders? Education? Jobs? Mental health and drug treatment? What kind of support do they have once back in the community? Whats the best way to deal with women who come from abusive backgrounds and relationships? In this hearing, it seems apparent the system failed to work for the Tooele mother before and after her third child died. Long, 37, is identified by the initials CJL. Board member Chyleen A. Arbon, who conducted the hearing, is identified by the initials HO. At the start of the hearing, the two discuss Longs current mental health status and medications she is taking for depression and sleep. HO: What are your nightmares? CJL: Its because of my crime, of my son dying. I see that every day. And it just kind of wakes me up. Its different nightmares of him just laying there. HO: Where did he pass away? Was it in your home or was he in the hospital? CJL: He was in my home. HO: So you found him passed away. Thats the recurring nightmare, of you finding him? CJL: Yeah. HO: Lets talk a little bit about your substance abuse. What treatment have you had? CJL: I did Excell [a therapeutic residential program in the womens prison] in 2008. HO: So did you complete it? Successfully? CJL: Yes. And graduated it, yes. HO: But then youve relapsed since then, right? CJL: No. I havent done any drugs actually since 2004. HO: I thought you were on drugs during your pregnancy. CJL: No. HO: Just a previous one, not CJL: Yeah, because I was in Orange Street [a halfway house for women] when I was pregnant. HO: Alright. You completed your high school diploma. CJL: [Yes] HO: And you enrolled in some college in 2008. CJL: Yes. HO: How far did you get? CJL: I did one semester, and then I was removed because they took me [to a] county [jail].

HO: OK. You had trouble completing Orange Street, tried to complete it twice and couldnt complete it. Tell me why. CJL: Because I continue on going out there and being codependent on men. So I would hook up with my ex-boyfriends, and it was like I couldnt get a job and keep it because of my crime. HO: Because theyd find out your crime and dismiss you? CJL: Well, I would tell them and then theyd say something, and then it would be like I would be gone. Others would be like they would fire me. So I had a hard time holding down a job. HO: What is your current support system? CJL: I have a little bit of a support system, but not much. HO: So tell me what it consists of. CJL: It consists of two of my best friends. HO: But they have records? CJL: No. HO: No? Drug use? CJL: No. One of my best friends Ive known since I was in elementary school. HO: Are they both female? CJL: Yes. HO: So two best friends. They are both female and they are both clean and crime free and stable? CJL: Yes. HO: Anybody else? CJL: And then my brother. HO: Whats his situation like? CJL: He is working right now and hes living with my best friends dad and brother. HO: Is he stable, crime free, drug free, or does he have a record? CJL: He doesnt have a record. Im the bad child. HO: OK, so can you just kind of walk me through your history a little bit. You had two babies, adopted them out. You have a third baby, it passes away. You have two more babies. Walk me through this and help me understand where youre coming from. CJL: I gave up my oldest two kids in 2000. HO: How old were they when you placed them? CJL: My first oldest was 4, almost 4, and my baby was just a baby in the hospital. HO: So you had a 4-year-old and a baby. And you gave them up. Why? CJL: Because the baby was born to drugs. HO: What year was that? CJL: 2000. HO: Do you know anything about how those two children are doing? CJL: No. HO: How many men are fathers to your children? CJL: Three. No, four. HO: So four. Which two are coupled? CJL: My oldest son has a dad, then the baby that just died and my second-oldest have the same father. HO: I missed that. Say that one more time. CJL: My second-oldest and the baby that just passed away. HO: So the first child has one father, and then the second child has a different father? CJL: Yes, and the child that died also has the same father as the second-oldest. HO: So your second and third child have the same father, and then the first child has a different father,

The fourth and the fifth child each have a different father. CJL: Yes. HO: All four of these fathers, theyre all convicted felons, is that correct? CJL: No. HO: All but one? CJL: All but one, yes. HO: Which one? CJL: [name deleted], my first ex. HO: So the father of your first child is not a convicted felon, the rest are. ... Two children, youre on drugs, you place them for adoption. How long after do you get pregnant with your third child? CJL: It was in 2003 that I got pregnant with him. HO: Why do you think you continue, when you know youre codependent on men maybe you didnt know that back then, maybe youre just coming to that awareness why arent you prohibiting these pregnancies? Why are you continuing to get pregnant? CJL: Im not continuing to get pregnant. Im not deliberately getting pregnant. HO: But why arent you doing anything to stop? No foresight? CJL: No, but I know now that Im a codependent on men and I dont want that anymore. HO: Alright, so lets talk a little bit about what happened to your child that passed away. CJL: OK. He had an afghan smothered around, covering his face, to hold the pacifier in his mouth. HO: And whose idea was that? CJL: It was mine and my husbands. HO: Why did you think that was a good idea? CJL: I dont know, we just thought it was. But we didnt know exactly the circumstances of what was going to happen. HO: You couldnt see that far into the future, that wrapping a blanket around his head would suffocate him? CJL: No. HO: I find that really hard to believe. Is it because you were on drugs or do you really think thats just what you thought? CJL: Well, because I wasnt on drugs at that time because I was trying to stay clean to keep him. HO: Was he [her husband] on drugs? CJL: He might have been, yes. HO: You dont know? CJL: I have no idea, no. HO: And youre how old at that time? CJL: Twenty-eight. HO: Im having a hard time processing that. Do you have a hard time processing that? CJL: I do actually. HO: How a 28-year-old who is not on drugs, whos had two children before, so this isnt your first child youd obviously raised one to 4-years-old so youd been through the whole baby phase would not think that wrapping a blanket around a babys face would suffocate them. CJL: I know. Thats whats hard for me. I dont understand it. Its definitely hard for me. Im not denying it. HO: Yeah, Im just trying to wrap my head around it. So, after that happens you get pregnant two more times. Wheres your thinking at that point? CJL: I wasnt thinking. HO: You still werent on drugs? CJL: No.

HO: Youre just getting pregnant and not thinking, gosh, Ive already placed two up for adoption, ones been killed by my negligence or abuse and Im still having two more babies. ... You made a statement, this was earlier on, this is after your third child had passed away. You said two out of three isnt bad, referring to the fact that two were alive and one was dead. Two out of three isnt bad. CJL: I didnt say that. I know thats what the report says, but I didnt say that. HO: I find that really hard to believe, that you could be that callous. CJL: I didnt say that. HO: I mean, do you see what kind of predicament were in here? Youve paroled, youve failed Orange Street [halfway house program] twice. Youve had five pregnancies, four placed for adoption and one dead. What do you think the future holds for you? CJL: Nothing. Thats all I can say, is nothing. HO: Is that where you get caught in your depression and grief? CJL: [Yes]. HO: What kinds of things do you talk about? I think youre in a grief group, an anxiety group, is that correct? CJL: The anxiety frustration is over but Im in a grief group, yes. HO: What kinds of things are they helping you work on or think about? I dont even know where you go from here. What kinds of things are you working on? CJL: Right now Im working on the issues that I have that I need to group with. HO: So what are those issues? CJL: My mom dying, my oldest two kids being adopted out. My son dying. Me not having no control over it. Being there and knowing that ... Like I said, this is where Im trying to wrap my head around it and thats why Im trying to do this grief group so I know and understand what I know is wrong. HO: Your last two have been adopted out, correct? CJL: Yeah. HO: Do you have contact with any of them? CJL: I have contact with the little girl that I just had, but not with the other one. HO: And why do you have contact with that one? CJL: Because I adopted her out to a family and the state allowed that to happen. They allowed them to adopt them. HO: You mean an open adoption? Because all the others are adopted. Its the same process, its just the other three are closed and this ones open? CJL: [Yes]. HO: What do you think is in your best interest at this point? CJL: I dont know. All I know is I wrote and asked for termination [to stay in prison until her sentence is complete] because I cant do this. I want to move forward. I want to be able to grieve. And do it the appropriate way. HO: What is the appropriate way? CJL: To go to grief group and do all I need to do. HO: Why do you think a termination is in your best interest? CJL: Because Orange Street isnt going to do me a lot of good. And I dont have an address to go to. But Orange Street is not going to do me any good. HO: Why? CJL: Because if I couldnt complete it twice, why would people think I would be able to do it again? HO: Well, it doesnt matter what other people think. Do you think you could complete it?

CJL: I think I could, yeah. HO: So then why say I cant do it or I dont want to do it? CJL: Its probably because I dont want to even though I know I can. HO: And why dont you want to? CJL: Because Im afraid if I dont do it Ill end up back here. Because I cant seem to abide by the rules there because I keep going out and getting myself in trouble. I think it would be good for me but I just... HO: But the point is, I guess what Im trying to grapple with is, if you cant complete Orange Street and follow the rules, then termination is not really going to be in your best interest. Because if you cant follow the rules that means youre going to do something thats not good for you or good for somebody else, like end up pregnant again, or end up harming. You know what I mean? CJL: That doesnt mean Im going to end up pregnant again. I mean, Im not deliberately going out there and getting pregnant. Im not doing that. HO: You might not be deliberately, but youre ending up that way and children are getting hurt. CJL: Yeah. HO: I mean, part of me wonders if you need to stay incarcerated until you cant bear children any more. I know that sound harsh, but this is a lot to process. CJL: Yeah, it is. HO: And Im not sensing from you that you really have a dog in this fight, that youre not really that committed to understanding yourself and getting yourself to a healthy place. I get the sense youve kind of given up a little bit on yourself. CJL: No, I want the help but I just feel like everybody is just trying to pressure me. HO: Pressuring you into what? CJL: Just everything. I mean, theyre like, I dont know. HO: Go ahead and take a minute and think about what the pressure feels like and what you feel pressure to do. CJL: Just they dont want me to get pregnant. OK, I understand kids are getting hurt. I do, I understand that. But thats where the pressure comes in, you know? I mean, Im not I dont want that lifestyle anymore. I dont want that. HO: When you say youve realized that youre codependent on men, dont you think you need and you dont really have a place to go to dont you think you need the support, the resources, the programming, to help you change your decision making, help you make healthier decisions? CJL: Yeah, but I dont think keeping me locked up is going to help, either. Orange Street, yeah. But I dont know that keeping me locked up is going to help, either. HO: Anxiety group and grief group, arent you finding some help there? CJL: Yeah, I am. HO: Im trying to do whats in your best interest but Im having a hard time following your logic, which makes me think that youre not really putting all this together. And that is, youre saying I dont want to go to Orange Street, just terminate me, locking me up is not in my best interest, but Orange Street might be. Youre kind of losing me a little bit on whats in your best interest. I think there are some resources that you can take advantage of here. But I think until you get yourself to a place where youre healthy enough to want to take advantage of resources out there and not just say everybody just leave me alone. I think everybody just leave me alone is going to end you up somewhere thats going to be unhealthy for you and possibly another child. Is that possible? CJL: No, no. HO: How are you not going to get pregnant in the future?

CJL: Because the people that I hooked up with were my exes. I dont want to do that anymore. I dont. HO: There is going to be a whole new, fresh crop of folks that youre going to come in contact with, and youre going to want to feel loved, or feel accepted, or codependent and youre going to want to be with somebody. And then maybe youre not always thinking ahead three steps down the road and not protecting yourself and end up pregnant again. I mean, you dont see thats a very possible CJL: Thats not what I want, though. I dont want to have any more children to give them up. I dont. HO: So how are you going to stop that? CJL: By not doing it. By not going out there and being codependent. I dont want to any more. I want to live my life without somebody in my life. HO: And you feel like you have the skills to do that? CJL: No, I dont but I just dont need a man by me. HO: So where are you going to get the skills? Youre envisioning this life of self sufficiency, right, that youve never lived. Where are you going to get the skill set to do that? Because thats going to be hard. Theres a lot of stress, theres a lot of responsibility, there can be a lot of sadness and disappointment and, you know, sometimes the reaction is to screw it all. So where are you going to get the support and the resources to help you live this self sufficient life that youre envisioning? CJL: Thats why Im taking advantage of all the classes, Im doing all my mental health. I want to be able to experience all of that. And if I cant then ... HO: So then you are getting something out of being here. CJL: Yeah. HO: Because before you said this isnt doing you any good. CJL: Well, it really isnt being locked up for as long as Ive been locked up. HO: How long have you been locked up? CJL: Ive been locked up since 2005. HO: Uuuuhhh CJL: Besides being out on parole. HO: Exactly. You just barely came back in like what? CJL: Last year, before last year. HO: Right. CJL: Right. But thats how I feel. Because going to Orange Street is, you know what I mean, thats just how I feel. That is a lot of why Im doing the grief group and Im taking advantage of everything I have here because I know that Im stuck. And its hard for me to try to. and I do want that life. I know, Im confusing myself. Im sorry. HO: Thats OK. This is tough stuff. HO: Lets talk about a future and what it might look like. What kind of plans to do you have for your future? CJL: I want to get a good job, I want to have my own place. HO: OK, what kind of job do you think you could get, realistically? CJL: If I could get back in business tech I would like a clerical job, or something. Realistically. HO: Do you think you need some vocational rehabilitation to be able to get a job or do you think you can just go out there on your own and get one? CJL: No, I know I cant just go out there on my own and get one. You have to have vocational rehabilitation to be able to do that. HO: To be able to access that you would need parole and not a termination. So do you think that is useful? CJL: Yeah. HO: Where would you live?

CJL: I havent ... HO: Maybe you might need a community correctional center to stabilize. CJL: Yeah. HO: It seems to me the way youre framing this is that everyone is out to get you, everyone is out to pressure you, everyone is out to get you to follow rules and maybe what youre not seeing is that these are resources to help build a better life for you. Is that possible? CJL: Yes, thats exactly what. HO: Do you think you could ever reframe that and get to that point? CJL: Yeah. I think its safe to say that Im afraid. Thats probably what it is. That Im afraid. HO: Youre afraid of what? CJL: Of going out there and possibly succeeding. Thats what Im afraid of. Going to Orange Street and possibly succeeding. HO: Why are you afraid of succeeding? CJL: Because things are set up for us to fail. But Im just afraid of succeeding because I know I can do it. HO: But why would you be afraid of succeeding? Isnt that a good thing? CJL: It is a good thing. HO: But why are you afraid of it? CJL: I dont know. I just know Im afraid of it. I dont know. HO: Maybe all youve known in your life is failure and so success would be something unknown and uncomfortable and foreign and new. CJL: Yes. Because thats what Im used to. Im used to failure. Thats how I was brought up, basically. Thats probably a good possibility of why Im afraid. Im just afraid of it. HO: I want you to succeed and I want good things for you, but I have a public responsibility to protect you from yourself and others because if youre so engrained in failing and thats what youre going to do again, then its on my shoulders and not just on yours. And thats why I feel like you might need some time here to reprogram your brain, to go process some of this grief, process some of this anxiety, process some of these beliefs that you have about yourself that you are going to fail. I dont want you to go out and sabotage yourself. I think if you are released too soon, you probably will fail at Orange Street because thats what you think you will do, and youll prove yourself right. I know this is not the most ideal place in the world, but I think if you can try to see it as a chance for you to reprogram, gain some success, process some of these emotions, get stabilized in your life, be on your own for a while, then I think you might have a better chance at Orange Street, at being successful, because you wont be going out afraid to succeed, or prepared to fail because thats all youve ever know. And youre still fairly fresh. HO: When did you give birth to your last child? CJL: Almost a year ago. It will be a year at the end of this month. HO: Thats not that much time. With some of your pregnancies you were probably pregnant again by this time, maybe even. No? Whats the closest any two were together? CJL: No. The first two are four years apart. The third baby is four years apart from them. And the one that was born in 2010 was like eight years born after and then three. HO: So three is the closest? CJL: Yeah. HO: So you wouldnt be allowed to live with one of your friends? CJL: I dont know if they would allow me to. HO: Yeah. I mean, given that, theres no way I can even contemplate a termination. I just cant. I would

not be responsible on my part. People would look back at your record and go, Are you crazy? So Orange Street seems to be the only viable possibility because you dont have any place to live. You have to wrap your brain around that. Do you see another alternative? CJL: No, actually I dont. HO: I know you think that everyone is pressuring you and everyone is trying to protect some unborn child out in the future, but really its protecting you as well because that is just one more experience of grief and pain for you to experience. So this is for you as well. See what Im saying? Its not just to protect others, its to protect you from doing things that are going to be detrimental to you as well. CJL: Yeah. HO: What other kind of program can you take advantage of in here? CJL: Well, right now Ive been taking a lot of life skills classes. And I work. Im trying to take advantage of everything. I tried to get into exercising classes. I go to church, I go to crochet, I take an opportunity to do, you know, things in here. To try and get myself prepared. HO: How much remorse do you have over your child that passed? CJL: I actually have a lot of remorse. I know what I did was wrong. And I look back and I wish I could change all that happened, I do. HO: Do you ever cry over it? CJL: [Yes]. I cry at night. HO: Because Im not seeing a lot of emotion from you. Im just wondering if thats just your style or ... CJL: No, I cry at night. I dont like to cry in front of people. Thats hard for me. HO: So you kind of put a wall up, numb yourself, stiff upper lip, then when youre alone breakdown? CJL: [Yes]. HO: What do you regret most about it? Whats the piece of it ... because it sounds like the father was abusive as well. It wasnt just this one incident. CJL: Yeah. HO: You watched him be abusive and didnt speak up? CJL: Yes, I did. HO: Do you feel ... CJL: I feel that I should have taken the baby and left. HO: Why do you think you didnt? CJL: Because I kept wanting to go back to him. Because I know thats where the love was. And thats what I was used to. Several times I wanted to go away from him because I hated seeing that. And to this day I dont I should have, I should have just left. Thats what I should have done. HO: How far into your pregnancy did you do drugs with your second child? CJL: All the way. HO: Throughout the whole pregnancy? What were you doing? CJL: Meth and marijuana. HO: Was that the only child that was drug addicted or were there others? CJL: That was the only one. HO: Why do you think you couldnt stop knowing that you were pregnant? CJL: Because I knew that probably the state was going to get involved ... HO: No, I mean, why would you do drugs your whole pregnancy? Sometimes people do it and they find out theyre pregnant and it stops them cold turkey. CJL: I guess that was the peer pressure there, you know, because my husband at that time was getting high. And I figured, you know its OK. HO: And he didnt care that you were pregnant either.

HO: What was your upbringing like, your childhood? CJL: I was actually in an abusive home. I was basically the one that had to protect. And I was basically in a low-income family. HO: What kind of abuse? CJL: My dad would hit my brother and I would have to step in between. He hit my mom. HO: But he didnt hit you? CJL: No because I would stand up to him. I dont talk a lot about my family because its hard for me. HO: You feel like youre perpetuating the cycle? CJL: Yes. HO: Because you probably have a lot of anger and hurt from being abused but you turned into doing that same thing. ... Do you think its something you can get out of? CJL: Yeah, I have to work up to that to get out of it, but yeah. HO: How much time do you think would be reasonable for you to spend in here before you were to try to parole? CJL: Another year. HO: What do you think you can get out of that year? CJL: Probably how I can see my lifestyle is, going to Orange Street and wrapping my head around that. HO: Do you think maybe it would be useful for us to have another hearing in a year and see how youre doing and see if youve been making good progress and see where your mind is? CJL: No, I think, I dont know. HO: If I make a recommendation to, say, parole in a year how do I know were still not at this square one right now? CJL: I wouldnt even know that, I have no idea. HO: Would you be opposed to have another hearing in year and seeing how youre doing and seeing what kind of progress youve made and seeing if your attitudes changed, your thinking has changed? CJL: I would oppose that because I know Ive already been here so long and Im already doing resources to work on that. HO: Youre saying thats why you would be opposed to it? CJL: I know that I'm working my way up there to be strong enough to do it. HO: Have you ever had a psychological evaluation? CJL: No. HO: Do you think you have any kind of mental health issues that youre struggling with? CJL: Well, no, thats why I do mental health now. HO: Well, I mean, theyre just looking at anxiety and grief. Im just wondering if you have any kind of bipolar or borderline or anything like that that you think youre struggling with. CJL: I dont know. I might. Ive never had a psychological evaluation. HO: Do you think it would be useful to get some insight into yourself? CJL: Yeah. HO: I think that would be useful. So they never did that at the time of your sentencing or anything like that? ... Theyve diagnosed you with depressive order. But I dont know if thats just a simple five question. How did they come to the depression diagnosis. Do you know? CJL: Well, I know that depression runs in my family. ... HO: OK, thats what Im talking about. Thats why Im wondering if maybe, but nobody has ever screened you for bipolar. [The hearing officer decides such an evaluation would be useful and also asks about use of birth control

medication. She also learns that Longs mother passed away in 2003, that her father has disowned her but her one sibling, a brother, is supportive.] HO: I appreciate that you are candid about the babys death in the sense that you take full responsibility because you could minimize that but you havent. And I understand that maybe you dont show your emotions in front of other people, but it seems like, Im hoping this is not the case, but it seems like youre maybe a little bit callous toward it. CJL: No. Im not actually, Im not. Im really not. The day that my son was found dead I wanted to die just like he did. [The hearing officers asks Long about a previous suicide attempt.] HO: What was that about? What place did you go to, where were you getting to in your mind? CJL: Getting to where I didnt think I deserved to be here, because I was having my kids and couldnt keep them, and I wasnt a good mother, I wasnt fit ... HO: You didnt deserve to be here alive or didnt deserve to be in prison? CJL: No, I dont deserve to be on this earth. HO: But why now? Thats several years after the death of your child. CJL: I dont know I guess I just finally got around at that stage. It was all hitting me at once. HO: You say the baby died in 2003? CJL: He died in 2005. My mom died in 2003. HO: OK. But maybe it all finally caught up with you and hit you, the reality of it all.