Prepared by: Jody Woods Index: Type bundle index here

Date: 7/2/02 DOC Library: Type library name here

Job Code: 320087 DOC Number: 152219

State IG, 7/1/02

Reviewed by: Type reviewer name here
Review Date: Type review date here

Record of Interview
Purpose We met with the State Department's Inspector General to discuss our
preliminary findings.

Contact Method In Person

Contact Place State Department, Rm. 6817

Contact Date July 1, 2002

Participants GAP
Jess Ford, Director
John Brummet, Assistant Director
Judy McCloskey, Analyst-in-Charge
Jody Woods, Senior Analyst

Clark Ervin, Inspector General

Rick Reback, 647-8367
Jennifer Price, 647-6171
Dick Berman
Charles Anderson, 703-284-2656
Linda Topping-Gonzales, 647-9450
Kathy Friebel, 647-7759

Comments/Remarks

1Auditor's note: From the timing of the situation, we took this consul general to be Tom Furey's
immediate predecessor. Consular officers in Saudi Arabia have accused Mr. Furey of pressuring them
to issue visas. During his tenure, 15 of the 19 September 11th hijackers were given visas in Saudi
Arabia

Pagel Record of Interview

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Date: 7/2/02
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Mr. Anderson stated that much of the press attention State has received
lately is on the friction between customer service and border security. He
acknowledged that the culture of efficiency and streamlining visa
operations must be dismantled. He noted that in some respects this is
already happening. For instance, posts are no longer being pressured to
issue visas on the same day. He suggested that whatever efficiency
measures are to remain, they should have safeguard procedures to ensure
they don't impact border security. He also confirmed our observation that
consular managers do have influence over the refusal rates and often
refusal rates change when new managers take over.

Changes since September 11th

Mr. Berman stated that the biggest change since September 11* has been
increased information sharing, particularly from the CIA.

September 1999—Report on Visa Fraud

Mr. Berman stated that we should obtain a copy of the 1999IG report on
visa fraud operations. He stated that in that report the IG looks at staffing
and training issues, as well as the visa referral program and Ambassador's
decisions to short shrift visa fraud operations. Mr. Anderson lauded the
London fraud operation, and felt that it should be a model for fraud
operations globally.

Profiling

Mr. Anderson stated that posts use their own methods of profiling for
immigrants. The best example of this in Sao Paolo, Brazil, where consular
officers can judge the economic situation of an applicant from his address
alone. The post was sued in the 1990s for racial discrimination on the
basis of this profiling.

Mr. Anderson thought that profiling for terrorists would be much more
difficult. First, much of that information would be classified. Second, it is
unclear what section of the law could be used to profile. Finally, short of
giving visa applicants lie detector tests, Mr. Anderson did not feel a
consular officer could spot a terrorist.

FSN Malfeasance

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Prepared by: Jody Woods Index: Type
Date: 7/2/02 DOC Library: Type
Job Code: 320087 DOC Number:

Mr. Ervin stated that it is a tough juggling act between having to depend
on FSNs and allowing them to have too much control. Mr. Anderson
stated that you have to depend on FSNs in some cases, like in translations.
He provided an example of a case in China, where his translator
immediately realized a visa applicant was an imposter by his language
skills. Another example he provided was the anti-fraud units that are
heavily dependant on FSN investigators. Still, he acknowledged that in
many cases, the FSNs are working for the host government as spies and
questioned how good background checks conducted by host government
law enforcement would be.

Impact of Homeland Security

Mr. Anderson expressed concern that if the visa function were taken away
from the State Department, visa decisions may become subject to judicial
review.2

! Auditor's Note: I followed up on this question with Mary Moutsos, OGC. She stated that her review
of case law showed that judicial review is based on the rights given to the person, and that visa
applicants have no rights under the Constitution. She stated that would not change if the venue for
visa decision-making changed. After talking to State Department lawyer, Steve Flschel on the issue,
Ms. Moutsos surmised that this is a legal tactic State is attempting to employ to retain visa decision
making.

Page 3 Record of Interview