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IO-APRIL 2128, 1985/ VANGUARD PRESS

~
OFBERNIE
MA YOR SA NDERS TA L K S A BOUT
FIGHTING THE BRICK WA L L
OF BURE AUCRACY
BY JOSHUA MA MIS A ND GA IL E. HUDSON
R
is battles are many. his victories
delayed by the courts. In his four
years as mayor of Burlington, Bernie
Sanders has come under fire from
the business community for his "radical
proposals," from some elements of the
activist community for "not doing enough,"
and, most recently, from legislators who
would not relinquish their power over local
tax destinies.
Burlington's combative mayor has been worn
down from all the fighting. In the following
interview, conducted on three separate occa-
sions in the last six weeks (all hefore the
legislature voted down Burlington's charter
changes), the self-avowed socialist mayor
discusses the difficulties facing an adrninistra-
tion that claims to put people over politics.
With what could be his last chance for a
majority on the Board of Aldermen denied by
the voters, Sanders reflects on his p,olitical
style, dreams and hopes for Vermont s future.
Vangnard: What have you seen as your
major obstacles since taking office?
anden: An area we've gotten a lot of flack
Oil is dealing with national and intef!latjo~al
issues. The reason we get the flack IS basi-
cally in this country'y0u have a pohtlca! struc-
ture dominated by nch people who don t want
people speaking out on the issues: ... The truth
of the mailer is that an understanding of
Reagan's proposed hudj(et and successfully
defeating that budget will he far more signifi-
cant to the people of Burlington than any-
thing that [appeared] on the hallot on local
elections this March.
Mr. Reagan is proposing a 50 cent ~rop
erty tax increase for the people of Burlington
simply hy doing away with revenue sharing.
Reagan is proposing the loss of jobs, the POSSI'
ble inability to develop a people-oriented
waterfront through the destruction of UDAG
.... It is absolutely imperative that communi-
ties all over this nation fight that. And I'm
going to do all I can as mayor to fight this
budget.
The bottom line of all of this is that Bur-
lington ... is the only city in America with an
effective three-party system and I think that
this is generating agreat deal of hostility and
fear on the part of the ruling class who
understand, quite correctly, that it is good for
them to channel political activity into the Dern-
ocrat and Repuhlican parties because they
know it's not going to go any place. There
will not he any pull from either of those par-
ties for significant political change. But once
you're outside that political structure, you're
not beholden to people ... then you really can
start making some real demands on the system.
And that's what the fear is.
I think there is now a fear statewide that
what we're doing here in Burlington will sue-
ceed statewide .... Look what we're taking
on. Y ou know one of the thing.' always get a
kick out of is I am called confrontational every
year around [election] time. Probably there is
no political figure in Burlington, Vermont, his-
tory who has been attacked as consistently
and often as I have been. And as viciously! I
have to deal with the editors of the Free Press
twice a week. 'have to deal with the leaders
of the Democratic Party-real off-the-wall
stuff-leaders of the Republican Party, the
business community, the Chamber of Corn-
merce. I've got to deal with people in the
legislature who are intentionally going out of
their way to make life miserable for Burlington.
And you know, after all is said and done, I
end up being called confrontational.
1think there is a great vision that we will
succeed here in Burlington and have a gov
emment which is effectively responsive to
the needs of the people. It will show off the
fact that in other governments-state and
national-that doesn't happen,
Vanguard: Y ou get criticized from the busi-
ness community, from the Republicans, from
the Democrats. Do you get any criticism from
the left?
Sanders: As long as people understand what
we're trying to do and the kind of opposition
we're up against, that's all I ask to be judged
on. What I do resent is what's happened at
the waterfront, for example. 'resent the cheap
shots. People 'should know what I'm capable
of doing and what can be accomplished. I
think that some of the criticism that came
from the left was just unfair.
Vanguard: Is there criticism from the left
that is fair?
Sanders: I think I
the woodchip burni:
I know now I woulr'
Back then there
example where
carefully.
d have tried to stop
nt.. .. lfI knew What
ve suppnrted it.
cism. There was an
rd have looked more
Vanguard: Y ou've said that when you first
ran for mayor you had little idea of what Y OU
were actually getting yourself into, that Y OU
had only attended two Board of Alderman
meetings. What have you learned about city
government since then? How have you changed
the way you approach getting things done?
Souders: The truth of the matter is, on four
occasions J ran for statewide office, and that's
where my natural inclination had been. If
someone had given me a civics quiz on how
decision making took place at the local level
in Burlington I would not have done particu.
larly well. I could not have named you the
various commissions or where responsibility
lied. I was reasonably ignorant about the func-
tions of local government and that took me
time to learn.
And obviously how a mayor could use his
or her power to make things happen, I mean,
it took me a year to begin to understand what
a mayor could do. How you make things hap.
pen as effectively as you can. Obviously, the
truth of the matter is that my first year, espe-
cially with only two supporters on the Board
of Aldermen, I was basically powerless in
terms of my ability to deal with the Board of
Aldermen, because without at least five peo-
pie you have no veto power. No control over
the budget. In this form of government in
Burlington today, the greatest strength the
mayor has is through the budget. And without
veto power-without five members on the
board -that power was virtually nil. In truth,
with the election of supporters on the Board
of Aldermen, I began to have the ability to
effectuate some of the changes ....
What one learns is the way the system
works. The government that attempts to rep-
resent working people, low-income people, is
opposed at virtually every level you go
on .... The first struggle that we had was to
get things through the Board of Aldermen.
Then when we got initiatives through the
Board of Aldermen, by picking up another
vote here or there after torturous sessions
such as the excavation fee and so forth, then
you are opposed by the business community
and taken to court.
And then the courts themselves, through a
very undemocratic process-forgetting how
they even rule-will take forever, which is a
very, very serious problem and I think that
justice delayed, justice denied. The people of
Burlington passed an excavation fee to have
utilities pay for the damage they do so that
we can rebuild our streets. We have made a
good start, we need more money. We have
been in court now [don't know how long. And
I cannot tell you when that issue is going to be
decided. I think we're going to do okay. But
we have already been hurt by the delay.
We have passed a new electric rate design:
we managed to get it through. Under the
circumstances, we felt it was the best thing.
We're right now being taken before the Pub-
lie Service Board, being delayed before the
Public Service Board, having to fight a lot of
the big business community. The Public Serv-
ice Board itself is not sympathetic. So time
and time again, the excavation fee, electric
rates, cable television - what the Public Serv-
ice Board did to us was a total travesty of
justice.
The point I'm making is that when we are
A
able to get decent legislation, through our
own Boardof Aldermen, after years and years
of struggle to elect good people, to rally popu-
lar support, then what ends up happening is
that youget fought by the businesscommunity,
yOUget fought by the courts, you get fought
bystate government. The latest struggle that
we'reinis, of course, Withthe charter changes.
The legislature in its wisdom said fine, you
want to pass charter changes, we're going to
have toapprove them. Well, we passed them,
an d n OW we will s ee.
The City of Burlington boldly spoke out on
the needs for alternatives to the property tax.
A significant breakthrough. Now the legisla-
ture is suggesting they have the right-a lit-
t l e commi t t ee, with on e r epr es en t at i ve f r om
Burlington -says they have the right toover-
ride the way the people of Burlington say
they want their financial future to be. We
don't agree with that.
...AII this indicates that real power, the
ability to control one's future, does not neces-
sarily rest with the people. There are 13peo-
pieontheBoardof Aldermen and asympathetic
mayor. And you can be cut to ribbons in a
dozen different ways by the ruling class...
[ should also mention as a part of this dis-
cussionthat wehave been knocking our brains
out for four years to run a cost-effective
government...and then out of nowhere the
President of the United States decides that
he needs to spend $30 billion more on the
military .In order toget that money he's going
tocut revenue sharing .. _.What is going on in
Washington now, in one year, will undo the
work that we have been trying to do for years
and years. It is an extraordinary disaster, and
what horrifies me is the lack of public discus-
sion that goes on about this.
What Reagan is proposing is war, war, to
thedeath, onpoor people, onthe handicapped,
onthe elderly, on cities and towns. If he gets
his way, we will have to substantially raise
property taxes, and we will not be able to
fund many of the social services that we
provide.
Itis a total disaster. Think of all that we
could lose. And yet, instead of hearing an
outcry of millionsand millionsof people, you're
not. The peopleare tired, they're beaten down.
The wealthy people are dominating the situa-
tion.
The point of everything that I'm saying is,
if we're talking about democracy, whichmeans
the right of people tocontrol their own future,
they think that they have some power when
they go to the ballot box. Well, people voted
far me. But I, as a mayor, am not able to do
many of the things that I would like to do
becauseof what's happening frommany, many
other sources. And that's one of the many,
many-things you learn. And we respond, by
exposing those people for what they are....
Vanguard: Is bureaucracy set up to protect
the interests of the status quo?
Sanders: Of course. There's no question
about it. For example, one of the things that
we are trying to do in Burlington is come up
with a very radical idea, we supposedly live
inademocratic society. We urge you to come
out and vote, but why should I come out and
vote if it doesn't make a difference. I'mpoor,
I'mgoingto get shitted onanyhow, why should
I come out and vote?
Well, [in Burlington] it makes adifference,
we are different than the Democrats and
Republicans. Electusand wewill dosomething.
In truth [ think we have done a good job or
else I would have not been re-elected, But we
are not able to do anywhere as near as what
we want to do. III the past, wesaid the streets
and Sidewalks of Burlington are in terrible
condition, everybody agrees.
We think that the utilities, who have been
digging up these streets for years, especially
the privateutilities, whomakeafortune, should
be asked to pay rent and should be asked to
pay for the actual damage. Well, no Demo-
crat or Republican thought they should pay
rent, that was too radical a proposal. Finally,
after months and months of torture we got
the excavation fee.... '
We have said to the people that we intend
tolower residential electric rates to28percent.
I think people want that. Ifthis isdelayed and
delayed and defeated by the business com.
munity, people will say that Sanders did not
tell us the truth. Well, Sanders did tell the
truth.
But here you have an example of when
these delays take place and we are defeated
then ... people say, "Hey, it doesn't make a
difference." And that's, in fact, what the sys-
tern wants. But the system really wants totell
the people of Burlington, don't believe Bernie
Sanders, he can't deliver. We aren't going to
lethim. Wearen't going tolet the Progressive
Coalition deliver. They are just like the Dem-
ocrats and Republicans. And you know, you
see this crystalized with the electric rates and
excavation fee, charter changes, opposition
withthe phonecompany, etcetera and etcetera;
that is what the fight is about, whether we
can be allowed to deliver what we want.
Vanguard: Are yousaying it'saconspiracy?
Sanders: ... Deep down, and what Ronald
Reagan and his friends want peopletobelieve,
is that government can't do anything. Let the
private corporations do it. Take away the
power of government. I don't say that the
courts are part of a conspiracy, but the fact
that the court system is so bogged down, and
delayed, which is true for all [the courts], that
process is very anti-democratic.
Yanguard: What have been your major dis-
appointments and where do they come from?
Sanders: ... The truth ofthe matter is that it
becomes depressing and it becomes difficult
to get up and do your job as best you can
knowing that youare going to make mistakes;
when you're going to be attacked, attacked,
attacked. And the fact that we don't have a
majority of members of the Board of Alder-
men to help curtail some of that is hard....
One of the things that we also learned, in
one city-and this is a very serious national
problem-how you maintain people's excite-
ment for political activity week after week,
battle after battle is not an easy task ... .It is
difficult, people have jobs, people have per-
sonal problems and concerns. How you bring
working people into the political process when
people are only concerned about how they're
going to survive the next day. It's a very,
very difficult problem. We haven't developed
an answer to that problem.
It's something we are going to work on. In
the next year or two you will see, perhaps, a
little less attention on this or that and a little
bit more attention on this administration and
the Progressive Coalition going out into the
streets. Itis very easy for organized opposi-
tion to something, it is harder to organize
support for a vision or an idea.
For example: it is very easy f9f people to
write editorials or criticize us for not doing
more for housing. [Two housing projects have
been met] with bitter opposition from both
ends of the city. Everybody loves moderate-,
low-income housing. [But] it's very difficult
to develop low-income housing. Right now
.
there is probably no section of the city that
wouldaccept, or should accept, for that matter,
a Franklin Square.
We don't believe in that. We believe in
smaller units, diversified, decentralized. But
how you get housing development, even for
moderate-income, when you're being opposed
by this group or that group is very difficult.
Vanlfllard: How about philosophical dis-
appointments?
Sanders: ... What one learns fromthe job is
that you're sooverwhelmed fighting the fights
day to day that it's very difficult to come up
with great philosophical statements.
That's kind of sad, inaway ... the problem,
if you try todosomething different, and break
theoldrules, isaveryoverwhelmingproblem....
The values that I started with as mayor
have not changed one iota; the need to use the
officeof mayor to point out the injustices of
society, which are very rarely talked about.
One of the things I intend to do as one of the
very few socialist mayors in[North] America
is to be talking about the basic injustice of a
society which has agross inequality interms
of distribution of wealth.
It's never talked about. It's assumed that's
the way it is. It doesn't have to be. Y oung
people aren't exposed to visions of anew type
of society. How can people live in a better
way than they do now under capitalism? The
Vanlfllard doesn't write about it. The Free
Press writes about it never. WCAX doesn't
have it on television. It's not allowed on NBC
television. Who's talkingabout it? Who'sgoing
to educate kids to know that the world can be
a little bit different'
.. .1suppose that inmy gut, my viewsofthe
world have not changed. And one becomes
overwhelmed dealing with the day to day
problems and the struggles to get things
through.
Vanguard: What are your fantasies about
what city government can do to havean effect
on society as a whole?
Sanders: .. . 1would like to see local gov-
ernments all over [North] America start bring-
ing forth their people to say: "No, we want
money to protect the rights of the elderly, we
want money to repave our streets, we want
money for education. We don't want money
to be spent on the military."
The federal government discourages that.
The Burlington Free Press says we shouldn't
get involved in those issues. We should only
worry about raising property taxes and re-
paving our streets. And they know very well
the potential impact that could take place in
communities all over the United States.
Y ouwant my political dream? As a mayor,
[I'dliketosee] athousand mayors, represented
by millionsand millionsof people saying we're
concerned about our children. We don't want
mor e n u cl ear weapon s .
And the mayors and the city councils have
the power todo that. They're not doing it now
at all. I guess the expression "Act Locally,
Think Globally," and I really agree with that.
If the mayors of [North] America got to-
gether, they could reduce the military hudget
by 50 percent by saying to the President,
"I'm sorry, we have other concerns. We're
worried about our kids and our elderly, our
poor , ou r s t r eet s .... "
Vanguard: Y ou're talking about turning
mu n i ci pal g over n men t i n t o a g r as s r oot s or g an -
izing tool....
Sanders: Precisely ....
Vanguard: Speaking of municipal govern-
ment, how are you received by other New
England mayors?
Sanders: Y ouwould have to ask somebody
else, not me....
VANGUARD PRESS I APRIL 2128, 1985 11
What is an interesting question, though, is
how people respond to the word socialist. I
think probably, if there's another accomplish-
ment that we may have brought about, we
have shown the United States of America
that people aren't afraid ofthe word socialist.
We can argue, what have we done that's
terribly socialistic? But there's nobody in
Burlington that doesn't know that I'm a
socialist...and that is very important, because
if people don't know what the word means-
and if I don't know what the word means-
what it suggests is that people are not afraid
to look into new approaches. That's at least
what it does mean.
Vanguard: It sounds likeyou're heading for
a showdown with Montpelier. How does the
city of Burlington do this?
Sanders: ... What we are seeing now is one
city in the state that's attempting to protect
working people and low-income people. And
in their desire to do the right thing, and, in
fact, having done the right thing, they are
coming smack up against Montpelier which
does not share that same concern....
I believe what we are doing is, in many
ways, embarrassing the legislature and I think
weare putting pressure onthem by [fighting]
for the rights of the poor and elderly with
[regard to the effects of] reappraisal.
What do you think people all over the state
of Vermont are saying? They're saying,
"Burlington did exactly the right thing. Mont-
pelier should be helping us. Our communites
should be helping us."
So there's tremendous pressure. AndI think
they're not enthusiastic about that pressure
.... Every damn initiative wetake we're get-
ting hit over the head by the legislature and
by the governor's office. I think what you're
talking about is a political confrontation in
which we think we have the majority of the
people of the state of Vermont behind us....
Not only is the legislature not responding
to Burlington, it's deeper than that. It's an
issue of responding to working people. Y ou
know they tell us they don't have the money
to do these things. We have programs that
we've brought down where they can raise
tens of millions of dollars, but it calls on them
having the guts to stand up to the businesses
and the wealthy people who have benefited
from Reagan's tax cuts. They [claim] they
don't have the money for revenue sharing.
That's total nonsense.
Vanlfllard: What about working with the
n ew ad mi n i s t r at i on , con s i d er i n g Gover n or
K u n i n ' s n ew appoi n t men t s .
Sanders: Some of Governor Kunin's new
appointments have been to me a qualitative
improvement. We enjoy working with Sue
Crampton [ transportation secretary] more
than we did with [former Secretary 1Patrick
Garahan. So far we have worked better with
Leonard Wilson than with his predecessor.
Individual by individual I think she has
brought in some better people. But in terms
of the need to deal with the basic problems
facing the IlIate,l haven't seen that done yet.
Y ou sit here inBurlington and you see the
pressures that come down on the people who
don't have any money. And that's not just
talking about the gentrification in Burlington.
I've got news for you, you're talking about a
process that's really statewide. And how you
develop a program that protects people who
need protecting, I don't think liberalism and
moderatism-or whatever thegovernor's politi-
cal position is-is going to do it. Y ou need
some radical rethinking just todeal with those
problems .

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