Skelos Legal Team Letter To Court

Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41 Filed 10/14/15 Page 1 of 4

The Honorable Kimba M. Wood
October 14, 2015
That same afternoon, the United States Attorney appeared at New York
University Law School for a public lunchtime forum.2 During the forum, the moderator stated
the following: [n]ow speaking of the papers, your name appears in them with some frequency. .
. . So, some of your critics have suggested that you might overuse the media, the press. That
theres some line of propriety in terms of how much a prosecutor ought to be talking about cases
just filed, about cases pending in any way, or even about issues not having to do with pending
cases and that wherever that line is, youre on the other side of it. So thats the criticism.
(Transcript at 15).
The United States Attorney responded by stating, [a]nd the interesting thing
about, generally speaking, the criticism that arises of that nature, doesnt arrive in garden variety
cases. It often arises in cases where people have very, very, very sophisticated and high priced
lawyers, who can afford to make accusations like that. And then theres a forum for them to
litigate them, and then you know, if theyre correct, then someone will find that to be so. That
criticism never arises, interestingly, in the K2 [synthetic marijuana] context, right? Or in the
gang context. . . . And when prosecutors and local DAs walk around and they talk about how
education is important, nobody ever says, What are you doing? Youre overstepping your
bounds. Because that would be ludicrous. And so I think that same principle doesnt just apply
when you are talking about street crime. . . . So interestingly, and I think the criticism youre
talking about arises in the public corruption context, I dont frankly get why its different in the
public corruption context, especially when those crimes go to the heart of democracy, and
everybody, whether youre a prosecutor or a defense lawyer, whether you work in blue collar job
or a white collar job, whether youre old enough to vote or not, those peoples decisions affect
your lives and they make decisions about what kind of taxes you pay, they make decisions about
who goes, speaking of incarceration, who goes to jail, who doesnt, for how long, whether our
jails are properly monitored or not. And so to answer questions about why its happening, why
is there corruption in Albany or the city council or anywhere else? And what ordinary people can
do to make it better and to raise public awareness of this problem, I think is completely
appropriate and I think I would be, in some ways, remiss if I didnt talk about those things.
(Transcript at 17-18)(emphasis added).
The following day, online stories were published about the United States
Attorneys NYU remarks, including one titled Bharara says its his obligation to discuss
public corruption.3 The article reported, [w]hen asked about the high-profile corruption cases
hes brought against officials like now former Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos and
Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, the talk quickly shifted to criticism of Bhararas offices
public handling of the cases, which had led the judge in Silvers case to chide the prosecutor.
2
For the Courts convenience, an unofficial transcript of the forum is attached hereto as Exhibit
B (hereinafter Transcript). The video can also be found at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ-2tO92XcA&feature=youtu.be.
3
Jon Campbell, Bharara says its his obligation to discuss public corruption, POLITICS ON THE
HUDSON, Oct. 8, 2015, http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2015/10/08/bharara-says-its-hisobligation-to-discuss-public-corruption/.
2

The Honorable Kimba M. Wood
October 14, 2015
The reporter then picked up the United States Attorneys observation that the criticism often
arose only in cases involving very, very, very sophisticated and high priced lawyers who can
afford to make accusations like that.
Discussion
The United States Attorneys recent comments at NYU seriously prejudice
defendants Dean and Adam Skelos because they: (1) continue a pattern of extra-judicial
statements that presume guilt by elected officials, thereby taking away defendants constitutional
rights to a presumption of innocence and fair trial; and (2) undercut defendants legal arguments
by improperly suggesting that they are nothing more than legal maneuverings of high-priced
lawyers.
There is little doubt that the governments pending public corruption cases,
including the case against Senator Skelos, was a central topic of interest at the Forum and
something that the United States Attorney felt free to discuss, notwithstanding Judge Capronis
decision regarding his extra-judicial statements in connection with the arrest of then Assembly
Speaker Sheldon Silver. See United States v. Silver, No. 15-cr-93, 2015 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 47194
(S.D.N.Y. Apr. 10, 2015). Both the moderator and United States Attorney referred repeatedly to
public corruption cases, and the press reporting on the forum also picked up on the connection.
(See Transcript at 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 18, 35).
In this regard, the moderator asked the United States Attorney what he thinks
about the relationship between the sort of individual prosecution decisions and a systemic
problem like corruption? (Transcript at 12)(emphasis added). After talking generally for a few
moments about the need for deterrence, the United States Attorney stated, [i]f you hold people
accountable, great, but if you havent done something to try to make the problem better, then
thats not a great situation, and I think thats true in public corruption. (Transcript at 13).
Without ever distinguishing between pending cases and past convictions, the United States
Attorney added, [s]o part of what you do is you make sure that everyone understands why you
brought those prosecutions, and you make other, similarly situated people understand, hopefully,
that I dont want to be in the position of that person who just got hauled away, and whose life
has been ruined because of intentional conduct that harmed people, what they did. (Transcript
at 14). By improperly suggesting that the government only hauls off public officials after they
have committed in his words, intentional conduct that harmed people, the United States
Attorney undercut the presumption of innocence in Senator Skeloss case.4
The United States Attorneys October 7, 2015 statements raise an additional
concern here because they appear to address the propriety of the Rule 6(e) motion that is pending
before Your Honor. By suggesting that motions attacking the governments misuse of the press
4
These remarks create the same concerns identified by Judge Caproni in her decision, dated
April 10, 2015. Silver, 2015 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 47194, at *16 (the court is troubled by remarks
by the U.S. Attorney that appeared to bundle together unproven allegations regarding the
defendant with broader commentary on corruption and a lack of transparency in certain aspects
of New York State politics.)
3
Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41-1 Filed 10/14/15 Page 1 of 2
EXHIBIT A

http://www.newsday.com/longisland/nassau/sendeanskelos
wantsjudgetoholdhearingsintoallegedgrandjuryleaks
1.10933860
Reprints
Thiscopyisforyourpersonal,noncommercialuseonly.Toorderpresentationreadycopiesfor
distributiontocolleagues,clientsorcustomers,usetheReprintstoolatthetopofanyarticleor
orderareprintofthisarticlenow.
Sen.DeanSkeloswantsjudgetohold
hearingsintoallegedgrandjury
leaks
October7,2015ByJOHNRILEYjohn.riley@newsday.com
StateSen.DeanSkelos(RRockville
Centre),LongIsland'shighestranking
legislatorandmajorityleaderofthe
Senate,isthefocusofafederal
investigationintoallegationsofcorruption.
Above,SkelosinJuly2012.(Credit:
Newsday/AlejandraVilla)
LawyersforstateSen.DeanSkelossaidina
newcourtfilingthatseniorofficialsintheU.S.
attorney'sofficeinManhattanshouldbe
requiredtosubmitaffidavitsabouttheirrolein
leaksofinformationaboutthecorruptioncase
againsttheNassauCountyRepublican.
SkeloshasaskedU.S.DistrictJudgeKimbaWoodtoholdhearingsintoallegedgrandjuryleaks
beforehisNovembertrial,andarguedinhislatestpapersthatdenialsinaffidavitsfromfive
prosecutors,fourFBIagentsandtwoinvestigatorsweren'tenough.
SinceU.S.AttorneyPreetBhararahimselfpublicizedthecase,thelawyerssaid,Woodshould
requirea"broader"rangeofdenialscovering"seniorofficialsattheU.S.attorney'sofficeand
FBI."
Skelosdefenselawyerssayanygrandjuryviolationscouldleadtosuppressionofevidenceor
dismissalofcounts,oneofseveralpretrialmotionstheyhavefiled.Prosecutorssaynomatters
beforethegrandjurywereleakedbygovernmentattorneys.
FormerSenateMajorityLeaderSkelosisaccusedofusinghispowertodofavorsfora
developer,anenvironmentaltechnologycompanyandamalpracticeinsurerinreturnforjobs
andfeesforhisson,Adam,whoisalsocharged.
<backtoarticle
EXHIBIT B
Page 1
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The Forum A Conversation with US Attorney Preet Bharara
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Gage Spencer & Fleming LLP
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions

212-400-8845 - Depo@transperfect.com
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Dean Trevor Morrison: Good afternoon! Welcome. It's great to see
all of you here, and we are thrilled to have with us for this
week's forum Preet Bharara, the U.S. Attorney for the Southern
District of New York. Preet, thanks for joining us. You got one
"woo".
Preet Bharara: I know.
Dean Trevor Morrison: That may have been planted, we're not
sure. So Preet is known to all of us, and I won't take too much
time in the limited time we have with an extended introduction,
10
but he has of course had and is in the midst of having a
11
spectacular career of public service to be sure that has had
12
many elements. It started with several years in private
13
practice, and then as an Assistant U.S. Attorney in the office
14
he now runs. He worked for Senator Schumer in Washington. I
15
think that's when we first met, Preet, when you were in Senator
16
Schumer's office. And then since 2009, has been the U.S.
17
Attorney for the Southern District of New York. That's an
18
extremely long tenure in that job, in that very demanding job,
19
and of course we all read on a fairly regular basis about the
20
work of that office, which is a large and complicated and
21
sophisticated place. You spent several years in a large firm as
22
an associate after graduating from Columbia Law School, and then
23
moved into the Southern District as an AUSA. Was the plan always
24
public service?
25
Preet Bharara: Yes. First, I just want to say thank you for

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having me. It's good to be here at NYU. There are some people
who used to work for me who are in the audience, so a special
shout-out to you guys. I realize that you're going to learn a
little bit about me and I'm going to learn a little bit about
your eating habits, so it will be fun to watch you guys eat
lunch. I thought maybe I would have a sandwich but apparently
not. So when I was in law school certainly, and I think even
before that, I thought that I wanted to become a lawyer, and
I've said many times in seventh or eighth grade I read Inherit
10
the Wind and thought that's kind of a cool thing to do, to be a
11
trial lawyer.
12
that the thing that I really wanted to be was a trial lawyer and
13
specifically a prosecutor, and I think I really decided that's
14
what I wanted to do when I took trial practice in my third year
15
of law school, it solidified it for me, with somebody who then
16
was a chief judge in the Southern District of New York and then
17
became the Attorney General, Judge Mukasey, who taught a class
18
in which
19
haven't already, to take trial practice. Even if you're not sure
20
you're going to like it, you should try it, because to my mind
21
there was no more exhilarating thing to do as a lawyer, and then
22
to do it in a way where you're only goal is to do the right
23
thing in the right way and to advance the interests of justice,
24
not represent any particular but represent the public in the
25
United States of America. I thought, what could be better than
And then when I got to law school, I realized
and I hope many of you take this opportunity if you

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that?
The U.S. Attorney's office typically doesn't hire
directly out of law school, sometimes directly out of a
clerkship but not usually, so they want people to get some
experience. So I went to a firm, and I had it very firmly in my
mind throughout my time practicing in a firm
firms, actually
Attorney, and if I could in the Southern District of New York
because I thought there's no better thing to do than to wake up
every morning and look around and try to figure out how you can
10
make the world a little bit better, a little bit safer, and the
11
community a little bit better a little bit safer, and that's
12
what people in the office strive to do. And I would encourage as
13
many people as possible, whatever you think about doing, to
14
spend some portion of your time in your career as lawyers in
15
public service. It doesn't have to be as a prosecutor. It could
16
be as a public defender, it could be doing environmental work,
17
but there are a couple reasons for that.
18
gratifying thing than to take the education that you have been
19
gifted by going to an institution like this and figuring out how
20
to make the world a little bit better. It's as gratifying a
21
thing as you can do. The work has meaning, whatever work you
22
choose to do in the public interest, and then second
23
place it second but it's important to a lot of people
24
more likely to learn how to be a good lawyer and how to have
25
good craft and how to be a good practitioner in the public
and I went to two
that I wanted to become an Assistant U.S.
One is there's no more

and I
you are
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service, in the public interest, than you are going to be in the
private sector, and that's just a function of the dynamic of how
law firms operate and in-house departments operate. You're less
likely to get into court, you're less likely to take a
deposition, you're less likely to interview the witness. You
have an amazing opportunity not only to give back in public
service but also to develop your trade, which is a pretty good
combination.
Dean Trevor Morrison: So a lot of our students here, obviously
10
one of the hallmarks of NYU is a commitment to public service
11
and public interest, and a lot of our students take up the call
12
you were just reiterating.
13
case, that public service in the domain which you've worked
14
could be on the prosecutor's side,
15
[00:05:00]
16
it could be on the defender's side. Was there a reason that you
17
gravitated towards thinking about being a prosecutor, and do you
18
think that there is sort of one view of things on that side of
19
the V and another view on the other side of the V, or how do you
20
relate that to the way you think of public service more broadly?
21
Preet Bharara: Yeah, have great respect for people who practice
22
in the defense world. In fact when I was in private practice,
23
for some of those years I practiced criminal law on the defense
24
side. A lot of people who leave the U.S. Attorney's office or a
25
DA's office end up becoming defense lawyers, and vice-versa. I
And you mentioned it's clearly the

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hire back some of the best criminal defense lawyers in the city
who come back and then give back to public service after they've
spent some time in private practice. I think it's important to
have some experience often doing both because a) you're better
at your craft. You understand what the other side thinks. You'll
understand how the other side plans for trial, might examine the
witnesses, might cross-examine your witnesses; but almost more
importantly, I think if you have spent time in both areas, as a
prosecutor you have an understanding of what it is like to be on
10
the other side so that you make good decisions and you make the
11
right decisions, and you'll have an appreciation for how big a
12
deal it is not just to prosecute someone but to even commence an
13
investigation, and it makes people, I think rightly, more
14
sensitive to the fact that these are not just figments of your
15
imagination, they're not imaginary figures. They're real people
16
with real lives, with real people who depend on them, and if you
17
have that perspective and that experience, which everyone should
18
have, I think in many ways it makes you a better prosecutor and
19
a fairer prosecutor. And so part of the reason I gravitated
20
towards becoming a prosecutor is in my view
21
agrees with this
22
lawyers around, and if you care about justice and you care about
23
doing the right thing, you should never have to stand up and you
24
should never stand up as a prosecutor and advance an argument or
25
advance a case that you don't believe in with both your mind and
and not everyone
in some ways prosecutors are the best defense

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your heart. Very few people get to say that and do that, and I
don't think defense lawyers get to say that and do that except
sometimes. Prosecutor's office, as one of my predecessors
famously said, should be judged not just by the cases that it
brings but by the cases that it doesn't bring, and as a
prosecutor, you have the ability to exercise your discretion and
not bring cases that you don't think are in the interests of
justice, and I think to my mind, there is no gratifying thing
than that.
10
Dean Trevor Morrison: That provides a good segue to start
11
talking about some of the issues in the work of your office, I
12
think. So one we could put under the rubric of mass
13
incarceration, or maybe more generally mass incarceration as a
14
phenomenon of a criminal justice system or systems, if we think
15
about the federal and state systems as distinct, that many
16
including even our President have suggested is broken. I wonder
17
at your perspective on that, and if it's a segue from what you
18
were just saying it's because it picks up on this idea of
19
discretion. One place where there is a lot of discretion,
20
obviously, on the prosecutor's side is in charging decisions and
21
the like. One place in the system where there is less than
22
complete discretion is on the sentencing end and the existence
23
of mandatory minimum sentences in the federal system in
24
particular, a number of the federal drug laws, and some point to
25
that as one big cause for the extent of mass incarceration in

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the United States today. Obviously you have a role within the
system but how do you think of this as a problem, or do you
define it that way? Do you think of mass incarceration as an
output of the current criminal justice system as about right, in
need of reform? How would you tackle the problem?
Preet Bharara: There's a lot of questions in that one
question...
Dean Trevor Morrison: I'm a law professor.
Preet Bharara: ...which I'll try to answer in less than 75
10
minutes. So first of all, I think that what we're talking about
11
is the criminal justice system, and the operative word there is
12
justice. You'll hear me talk about this a lot, and I work in the
13
department that is called the Justice Department. So everything
14
that we do I think should constantly be in a state of
15
reexamination and reform, whether it becomes popular in the
16
public perception at a particular moment or not. And so with
17
respect to what people refer to as mass incarceration, I think
18
it is a good thing that everyone from the President to members
19
of both major political parties in the country are thinking
20
about whether or not we are prosecuting people and holding them
21
accountable and sending them to prison for the appropriate
22
periods of time. Is that right? Is that wise? Is that fair? Is
23
that cost-effective? And all those questions I think have been
24
important to ask for a long time, and there's a moment now that
25
a lot of people are identifying where more people than usual are

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thinking about that and are reexamining that, so I think it's a
great thing. In my office, people in my office know
[00:10:00]
if I ask a question about why we're doing something in a
particular way, and the answer I get is "Because that's how
we've done it," I get very angry at that answer, and I think
that that same principle applies to broader issues of how we
treat people, prosecute people, how we do everything, how we do
education, you name it, it should be justified on its own terms
10
not just because that's how we've done it in the past. With
11
respect to mass incarceration, what people call mass
12
incarceration, I think on the federal side, people need to
13
distinguish the federal side and the local side, on the federal
14
side, I think it's only 10% to 14% of all people who are in
15
prison in the United States are in federal prison, so even if
16
you eliminated every federal defendant in the country, you
17
wouldn't do that much on this issue. At the same time, I think
18
the reports are that the number of people going to prison
19
federally, for federal crimes, is on a decline, and for the
20
first time in a long time
21
the newspaper today
22
next few weeks, 6,000 federal inmates are going to be released.
23
So there's clearly and understanding and a trend, based on what
24
judges are thinking about, the Sentencing Commissioner is
25
thinking about, the Department of Justice is thinking about, for
and I think people may have read in
that depending on what happens over the

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a little bit of a trend down in how long people spend in prison.
Apart from that, just to jump to another point, we need to think
deeply not just about how long people should spend in jail for
crimes they commit, or whether they should go to jail, but if
they do, what should be the conditions of their confinement. How
do we treat people who are still human beings who are in prison?
We do a lot of work in our office but not all of it gets the
same amount of attention, but I hope that people are aware of
the work that our office has done, our Civil Rights Division has
10
done, with respect to the conditions on Riker's Island. We have
11
thought really, really hard with the City and with the
12
Department of Corrections to make sure that everyone understands
13
that even though people may have committed crimes or are
14
presumed innocent until the trial happens, I know a lot of
15
people at Riker's Island who are pretrial, but that being behind
16
bars does not mean beyond the Constitution, and the Constitution
17
applies to every person in the country whether you've been
18
convicted of a crime or not, whether you're in jail or not. And
19
some of the conditions that we have found, and that led to our I
20
think landmark resolution with the City, at Riker's Island were
21
really abhorrent. There was use of force that was way out of
22
control, there was a lack of discipline, all sorts of things.
23
You can read the very lengthy report. And we accomplished
24
something there whereby, among other things, solitary
25
confinement, which people have been debating a lot now in the

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same context of the debating mass incarceration, has finally
been eliminated for adolescents at Riker's Island. So that work
is really important, and it's among the types of work that we've
done in my office that I'm most proud of. We also have been
looking at the Westchester County Jail. People may note that we
have been taking a look at an incident that happened at
Fishkill, which is further upstate, and it makes you wonder and
think, while we're talking about incarceration, is there a
systemic problem generally in the country but more specifically
10
because I'm in New York, is there a particular problem with the
11
State Department of Corrections and how they supervise these
12
various facilities in the state, and how they treat people who
13
are in their custody and care and control in the state, and
14
whether or not it's time that there is a very hard look at how
15
that Department of Corrections operates its facilities here in
16
New York.
17
Dean Trevor Morrison: So speaking of state government, an area
18
which your office has been quite active in the last year in
19
particular is around public corruption, and I'd love to hear,
20
literally there are so many questions I'd love to ask you about
21
pending cases, and I'm going to do my best to avoid that.
22
Preet Bharara: You're going to ask one with 18 sub-parts?
23
Dean Trevor Morrison: Exactly, yeah, you need to take notes. One
24
question that's connected to the corrections as well is how do
25
you think about the role of your office and the promotion of

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reform in other parts of here, another layer of government,
right, so you bring individual prosecutions. One hopes for there
not to be the kind of public corruption in the first place that
would occasion the prosecutions that you've brought, or at least
the allegations that your office has laid. So how do you think
about the relationship between the sort of individual
prosecution decisions and a systemic problem like corruption?
Preet Bharara: That's a great question and a very complicated
question. The principle role of the prosecutor is to prosecute.
10
The principle role of people who care about public safety is to
11
protect public safety. But it's also the case that in the course
12
of bringing certain kinds of prosecutions, you observe why it is
13
that some of that bad conduct happened. I mean, I never go
14
anywhere without getting asked the question, whatever area of
15
criminal conduct we're talking about prosecuting, people ask the
16
question, as they should, "Well, why does that happen?" And part
17
of the role
18
[00:15:00]
19
Preet Bharara:
20
and about upholding the rule of law is not just holding people
21
accountable, that's a part of it, but another very important
22
part, some would say, a more important part, if you do it
23
properly, is prevention. And prevention through, among other
24
things, deterrents. Because if you, as I say to people who do
25
narcotics prosecutions all the time, if you are able to make a
I think if anybody who cares about public safety

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neighborhood safer for people, and get rid of a gang problem,
and people you know, the next day, feel more comfortable letting
their kids go play in the park or go to school,
put away a bunch of people who are terrorizing the neighborhood
and selling large quantities of narcotics and shooting people,
which is happening in parts of our city, and in the District,
that's great, and a job well done, and you've held people
accountable. But if the next day 10 new gang members take over
that same block, then you really haven't accomplished that much
because you've
10
from the perspective of the people who want to send their kids
11
to school without being shot at. And I think the same principle
12
[PH 00:16:01] obtains in every context. If you hold people
13
accountable, great, but if you haven't done something to try to
14
make the problem better, then that's not a great situation, and
15
I think that's true also in public corruption. So part of what
16
you do is you make sure that everyone understands why you
17
brought those prosecutions, and you make other, similarly
18
situated people understand, hopefully, that "I don't want to be
19
in the position of that person who just got hauled away, and
20
whose life has been ruined because of intentional conduct that
21
harmed people, what they did." So I think that's an important
22
part of the job. Now I worked in the Senate for four and a half
23
years, so I used to be a person whose specific job description
24
included you know, advocating for particular piece of
25
legislation, drafting legislation, drafting amendments to

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legislation. So you know, I try to stay away from that but I do
get asked the question, you know, often, "What kind of tools do
you think you need? Why was it not possible to hold a certain
kind of person accountable?"And I think in those occasions, it's
appropriate to describe what some of the obstacles are to doing
our job, what some of the obstacles are to public safety. And
I've done that in the public corruption context, I've done that
in the drug context, I've done that in others. This last point
on that, you know, another new thing that's happening around the
10
country in the narcotics area, is the proliferation of what's
11
called K2 or Spice. Some people call it synthetic marijuana. And
12
it is a public health hazard that we haven't
13
we haven't seen in a very long time. And so when we announced a
14
sweep in that case, we arrested a number of people, and we did
15
this jointly with the DEA and with the NYPD, the number of
16
people who were going to emergency rooms
17
overdosing on what they thought was something innocuous, and
18
it's not; K2, Spice
19
were dying of overdoses of this drug, that's being manufactured
20
with chemicals in China. And then being sprinkled on leaves and
21
being sold as something that you don't have to worry about, in
22
bodegas and in convenience stores around New York City. We had
23
to make a
24
decision about how we go about broadcasting to the world these
25
arrests. And we didn't just do the arrests. I stood up with the
the likes of which
because they were
was going through the roof! And people
I think it goes to your point
we had to make a

Page 15
1
Commissioner of Police, with Bill Bratton, with the Head of the
DEA, and with other people, to not only say, "You should know
that we've arrested these folks and these are the charges that
are contained in the complaint." But also to let people
understand, so that parents and siblings and young people would
know that if you do this stuff, you don't know what kind of
chemicals are in there. There's no controls on them, and you
could end up in not just the hospital, but the morgue. And the
more people who heard that and understood that, and read about
10
it in the paper, the more likely it is that a life would be
11
saved. And I think that's completely appropriate.
12
Dean Trevor Morrison: That's an interesting view on not just
13
public corruption, but more broadly. Now speaking of the papers,
14
your name appears in them with some frequency. I'm told that the
15
the New York Observer ranking the most powerful people in
16
Albany has Governor Cuomo second, and you first. [Laughter]
17
There's a
18
my favorite headlines of the fall, "The Preet is On." [Laughter]
19
So, some of your critics have suggested that you might overuse
20
the media, the press. That there's some line of propriety in
21
terms of how much a prosecutor ought to be talking about cases
22
just filed, about cases pending in any way, or even about issues
23
not having to do with pending cases and that wherever that line
24
is, you're on the other side of it. So that's the criticism.
25
Preet Bharara: What's interesting about that is often, and look,
congratulations, I guess. [Laughter] This is one of

Page 16
1
prosecutors have to be very careful about what they do and how
they talk and what they say outside of a courtroom. And I adhere
[00:20:00]
as scrupulously as I can to all of those rules. But as I said, I
have a job not just in making sure that people in my office hold
folks accountable, but in making sure other people don't commit
the same crimes. And you know, I have
and responsibility to make sure that I'm doing that part of my
job too. And the interesting thing about, generally speaking,
I think
an obligation
10
the criticism that arises of that nature, doesn't arrive in
11
garden variety cases. It often arises in cases where people have
12
very, very, very sophisticated and high priced lawyers, who can
13
afford to make accusations like that. And then there's a forum
14
for them to litigate them, and then you know, if they're
15
correct, then someone will find that to be so. That criticism
16
never arises, interestingly, in the K2 context, right? Or in the
17
gang context. And prosecutors in this country, every day, walk
18
into high schools and walk into churches and talk about a crime
19
problem, and talk about ways in which you can solve crime,
20
beyond simply locking
21
we're talking about mass incarceration, we're talking about
22
interesting dichotomy here. Right? On the one hand, people are
23
saying, I think, intelligently and wisely, that you can't
24
prosecute your way out of every problem, whether it's public
25
corruption or drugs or prescription pills, or terrorism or
in fact
what we're talking about, and

Page 17
1
anything else. That what is necessary also is some kind of
is
engagement and public education, and deterrence and changes in
culture. And when prosecutors and local DAs walk around and they
talk about how there should be better after school programs, or
they talk about how education is important, nobody ever says,
"What are you doing? You're overstepping your bounds." Because
that would be ludicrous. And so I think that same principle
doesn't just apply when you're talking about street crime. When
you're talking about
and when a prosecutor goes and says, "You
10
should make sure that your kids go to school and get an
11
education so they don't fall to gang life." That is
12
applaud that. And I don't understand why
13
do it with respect to Wall Street Crime, the people who ask me
14
the most questions, that are technically out of my lane, right
15
"What statue do you apply and how long a prison sentence should
16
someone serve? What are the elements of insider trading?" The
17
people who most ask me the questions outside of that, and ask
18
me, "How can businesses do better? How can we change the culture
19
on Wall Street?" Are people who are on Wall Street. And when I
20
go and speak to hedge fund managers, and groups like this, this
21
large, but who are from the hedge fund industry or the trading
22
industry, or the banking industry, they're the ones who when we
23
do the Q&A, say, "Separate and apart from prosecution, how
24
should we be behaving? How can we inculcate in our institution
25
better character, better culture?" So interestingly, and I think
people
and by the way, when I

Page 18
1
the criticism you're talking about arises in the public
corruption context, I don't frankly get why it's different in
the public corruption context, especially when those crimes go
to the heart of democracy, and everybody, whether you're a
prosecutor or a defense lawyer, whether you work in a blue
collar job or a white collar job, whether you're old enough to
vote or not, those people's decisions affect your lives and they
make decisions about what kind of taxes you pay, they make
decisions about who goes
speaking of incarceration
who goes to
10
jail, who doesn't, for how long, whether our jails are properly
11
monitored or not. And so to answer questions, about why it's
12
happening, why is there corruption in Albany or the city council
13
or anywhere else? And what ordinary people can do to make it better
14
and to raise public awareness of this problem, I think, is
15
completely appropriate and I think I would be, in some ways,
16
remiss if I didn't talk about those things.
17
Dean Trevor Morrison: You mentioned the trading industry. So
18
that's one place where the answer that you gave at some point in
19
the past about where the rules
20
answer that seems to be the answer in the Second Circuit and
21
that the Supreme Court declined to take up earlier this week now
22
changed over time, with the Second Circuit's decision and the
23
Supreme Court's denial of cert. On Monday, in a pretty
24
significant insider trading case, one member of the faculty here
25
called the loss for the government in that case a dagger in the
what the rules are and the

Page 19
1
heart of insider trading prosecution. I'm guessing that's not
the metaphor you'd use.
Preet Bharara: Who's the member of the faculty? [Laughter] And
is he or she here?
Dean Trevor Morrison: We'll get on to surveillance later.
Preet Bharara: I'd like to have a word. [Laughter] Isn't that
out of the lane of a professor?
Dean Trevor Morrison: It's very wide lanes for professors in
terms of ... [Laughter] So some of the audience will know about
10
this case, and some won't, but why don't you tell us a little
11
bit about it and give us your perspective on the now, I guess,
12
settled law of the circuit, of the Second Circuit.
13
Preet Bharara: I don't want to go on at length about it, but we
14
brought a series of insider trading cases over the course of the
15
last six years, which have been fairly significant. We've done a
16
lot of other things too, but that's one area in which we've
17
done, I think, important work. An argument was made in a trial
18
court, you know, two people were convicted. At some point later,
19
that
20
their right, made various legal arguments, and one of the legal
21
arguments that they made was that the, you know,
22
[00:25:02]
23
the tipper, in giving a tip of material, non-public insider
24
information, didn't receive any benefit, yet had knowledge of
25
there being a benefit back. So in other words, the Second
the defense lawyers took it up to the circuit, which is

Page 20
1
Circuit, in deciding to vacate those, reverse those convictions,
basically said for somebody to be held liable for
liable for an insider trading violation, in addition to meeting
all the elements that we always understood, you have to prove
that the benefit that comes back to the person is something
don't have the exact words in front of me
material, pecuniary value or potentially pecuniary value. So
something other than mere friendship or relationship, but
something that amounts to something that you could sell. And to
10
our mind, that had never been the law before. The law had been,
11
I think, we argued in our briefs to the District Court, to the
12
Circuit Court, to the full panel of Circuit Court, and then in
13
our petition for [INDISCERNIBLE 00:25:56] that this
14
[INDISCERNIBLE 00:25:57] filed, that that had never been the law
15
before, under something called Dirks, which is the reigning
16
Supreme Court case in this area, and still is. And so we had an
17
argument about it, like you do; and you'll find that you do in
18
private practice, or in public interest law in the future. We
19
felt strongly enough about it, and the Solicitor General himself
20
felt strongly enough about it, that we took the unusual move of
21
petitioning to the Supreme Court, to have the Supreme Court
22
decide, because we think there should be clarity in this area
23
and we think that the Second Circuit
24
distinguished court and has a lot of great judges
25
mistake in this case. And judges are human beings, just like
criminally
but were something of
which is a very

made a
Page 21
1
everyone else. And sometimes we don't agree with them. We still
think we have the better of the position, even though the
Supreme Court declined to hear the case.
Dean Trevor Morrison: Were you surprised that the court denied
cert?
Preet Bharara: No, not surprised. I think if you talk to a lot
of experts, it's an uphill battle to get the court to hear any
I mean, you know
a lot of cases to consider and they can't consider all of them.
you've clerked on the court. Because they have
10
And I think any time you seek cert, in the Supreme Court, it's
11
an uphill battle. But two points I want to make about that. One,
12
to the extent that the unnamed professor said it's a dagger to
13
the heart
14
We have brought about 100 insider trading cases since 2009. And
15
even after the vacating of these two cases, these two
16
defendants' convictions, and some other cases will be implicated
17
also, but when all is said and done and all the dust has
18
settled, our view is, we'll probably be at a 90% plus conviction
19
rate all things considered, which is better than the conviction
20
rate for a lot of people. So I think the dagger analogy, unless
21
it's a very, very dull dagger, doesn't apply. [Laughter] Second
22
thing is, in terms of deterrents and in terms of what people
23
think about the insider trading docket that we've had, some of
24
the most prominent cases that you've heard about including the
25
one against Raj Rajaratnam and the one against Rajat Gupta, the
dagger to the heart implies that you killed the body.

Page 22
1
case against SAC Capital as an institution, all are going to
stand, not withstanding this particular decision that the
Supreme Court has declined to review. On the other hand, that's
not to say that we think that everything is hunky dory. There's
a certain category of conduct now
Dean Trevor Morrison: The cert petition must have said this was
an urgent question that needed the court's attention.
Preet Bharara: It did! It did, because look, because you want to
make sure that the markets are fair. And that people have faith
10
in the markets. And to our mind now, we think that the decision
11
now that stands, makes it very arguable that
12
hypothetical
13
to be the head of a top 50
14
decides to bequeath upon a relative or a crony or a buddy a tip
15
about what the earnings numbers are going to be two days before
16
they're going to be publicly reported to the world, and says,
17
with every bit of knowledge that it's private and confidential
18
information, with every bit of knowledge that the person to whom
19
he's giving the information is going to trade on it, with every
20
bit of knowledge and hope that that person is going to make a 10
21
or 20 or 30 million dollar profit, by having that special
22
information that nobody else is supposed to have, and says,
23
"Knock yourself out." If that person can now claim, under
24
Newman, as it can easily be read to say, "I didn't expect
25
anything back, it was just a gift, because it was my daughter or
I'll give you a
it makes it very arguable that a CEO who happens

a top 50 company in the world

and
Page 23
1
it was my golf buddy, or it was my college roommate.", he can
get away with that. And people have to ask themselves the
question, is that a good state of affairs? Is that how the
securities markets should be? Is that how you get people to have
confidence in the securities markets? And we believe, because we
prosecuted the case in good faith, and we understood what the
law was at the time, which we believe the Second Circuit
changed, that that should be criminal. And apparently, you know,
there's a decent argument that you can do that and get away with
10
it. And I think reasonable people can decide whether or not
11
that's a lovely thing.
12
[00:30:00]
13
Dean Trevor Morrison: We're going to open it up for questions
14
from students in a minute. I want to ask a question that maybe
15
in one way is a kind of resource allocation question, but I'll
16
ask it this way, which is, what worries you these days? What are
17
the
18
enumerated, and therefore limited powers, the reach of your
19
office is broad. And part of your job is to set priorities and
20
presumably that priority setting reflects a sense of the
21
problems most urgently in need of your office's attention. So
22
either at that level, or even in a sort of longer term way, what
23
are the issues that you're worried about, that you think the
24
government needs to be attending to, and the part of the
25
government that you work in, at least.
even though the Federal Government is a government of

Page 24
1
Preet Bharara: That's a good question and many would say that
the
Somebody once asked me, made the mistake of asking me the
question, "What again, is your jurisdiction, exactly?"And I
said, "Are you familiar with Earth?" [Laughter] So we
before I got there
District of thinking about the global reach that we have,
because we do have a good amount of resources, not unlimited
resources, but a good amount. And so you have to think from day
that our office's sort of ambit is particularly broad.
long
have a long tradition in the Southern
10
to day and from year to year, what the problems are. And so in
11
recent times, for example, and you move your resources depending
12
on what you think is a public safety problem and what you think
13
is a rule of law problem. And I've already mentioned one that
14
has become a higher priority as information comes to us. For
15
example, the problem, I think in prisons, around the state and
16
in the city, and Riker's Island in particular. I'll give you
17
another example; then we can take questions. Which I think
18
people have appreciated. When I started in the US Attorney's
19
Office, as the US Attorney six plus years ago, people were
20
beginning to understand how important the cyber threat was. And
21
how big a deal that was. At the time, we had basically one
22
person in our office who was really, really expert on the cyber
23
threat and how the internet, you know, the intersection between
24
criminal law and the internet and how much bad stuff bad guys
25
could do through use of computers and the internet. I mean, I

Page 25
1
have 10 times that number of people. Six years ago, the FBI and
the Secret Service were the principle law enforcement agencies
to try to protect us from the cyber threat, are now operating at
multiple times the number of folks they had working on it back
then and the people they do have are more sophisticated. And I
think people get it now, after hearing about the Sony hack,
after hearing about the hack of all the documents
8
9
mine included
at the Office of Personnel and Management.

Dean Trevor Morrison: Mine included.
10
Preet Bharara: Yours included. Especially yours. [Laughter] It's
11
a gigantic problem. It's a problem for your bank accounts, it's
12
a problem for your privacy. It's a problem for national
13
security. It's a problem for infrastructure. And if you ask
14
also see that that is reflected in the way that people talk
15
about the problem. You did not have a President of the United
16
States or a Secretary of State or a Treasury Secretary or the
17
FBI Director and his
18
included at a lesser level, all these people, every time they
19
speak publicly, they will talk about the cyber threat. And the
20
ability of bad guys to do bad things because of that. And how
21
recruiting is done, is being done through social media. A few
22
years ago, we finally got introduced to this concept of Twitter
23
and there are people in my office who say, "Oh, I don't even
24
know what that is." And thought it was kind of a weird thing for
25
conservative prosecutors to be on Twitter. And now, listen to
all these people
you
on a regular, myself

Page 26
1
Director Comey of the FBI. Every time he speaks publicly, he
talks about one of the biggest threats to the country and to the
world is the threat of [PH 00:33:31] ISIL, and how are they
recruiting people? They're recruiting people largely through
social media, through Twitter. We have people who are garden
variety gang guys, who are trying to recruit young girls in to
sex trafficking rings, where they will be abused and treated
very, very poorly and horrifying crimes will be committed
against them, and they're doing it now through social media. And
10
so if we don't get smart about that, and we don't understand how
11
technology works and how cyberspace works and how we can strip
12
away anonymity when it's important to do it, to get people who
13
are not only trying to steal your money, but some of whom are
14
trying to destroy your country, then we have big problems. So
15
that's what worries me the most.
16
Dean Trevor Morrison: And getting smart on that, is that a
17
matter of sort of technological development and literal
18
learning? Or do we need other laws than the laws we have?
19
Preet Bharara: I think we need, I think we need to do all of
20
that. I think we need to get
21
being understanding of and open to technology. And it's not just
22
true of the government, I mean, I speak to companies about this
23
when I get outside of my lane. And I tell them how they should
24
deal with the issue of cyber security. One of the things I say
25
to them is, "It can't just be the responsibility of..." A little
and it's also in orientation, of

Page 27
1
off your question, but I think it relates to it. One of the most
important things is that, when you're thinking about how to make
sure that your company is not hacked, whether you're a motion
picture company or you're a bank or you're a university, you
can't delegate that to the Chief Technology Officer or the IT
people,
[00:35:02]
it has to be something that's important to the CEO of the
company, to the board of directors of the company, because it's
10
a matter of risk management and corporate management, like any
11
other risk. Like the risk of competition, or risk of regulation,
12
or a risk that
13
to be in the bones, in every company in the country now, and
14
every government institution. This issue of how you deal with
15
this threat and how you deal with the cyber issue
16
cyber issues
17
the leader is: the US Attorney or the CEO or the Attorney
18
General or the director of the CIA. And on top of that, then
19
yes, all those people need to be thinking in deep ways about
20
where there are gaps in the law. Again, I generally don't talk
21
about that, but there are people who right now are going to the
22
Hill and talking about how we need to update our laws because
23
they're fairly behind in this area.
24
Dean Trevor Morrison: Let's take some questions from the
25
audience. We have some microphones here, so there's a hand.
an accounting problem you might have. And it has
with all the
has to be in the bones and in the DNA of whoever

Page 28
1
Mitchell Brown: Good afternoon. I'm Mitchell Brown, I'm a 2L
here. My question for you is we talked a lot about holding
people accountable and about deterrents and about public
awareness of issues. There's an issue of prosecutorial
misconduct in our justice system. What are your thoughts about
prosecutorial misconduct as a form of public corruption?
Preet Bharara: Yeah. I noticed you're reading the question. was
that from that professor? [Laughter]
Mitchell Brown: That's from me.
10
Preet Bharara: Okay, I was just making sure. Look
nobody takes
11
prosecutorial misconduct more seriously than prosecutors who
12
care about making sure that things are done the right way. The
13
mantra that I repeat in my office and it was, you know, taught
14
to me, and it was taught to the person who hired me, was that
15
every day your job is to do justice and do the right thing, in
16
the right way, and for the right reasons, no matter what. That
17
is the most important thing that you can do. And so you know,
18
any amount of prosecutorial misconduct is intolerable and if I
19
ever find out about it in my office, that's a gigantic problem.
20
What I think people need to understand is the best way to make
21
sure that you don't have prosecutorial misconduct is to make
22
sure that the culture of the
23
the rules and all of that. And this is true of a bank, and it's
24
true of a law school, and it's true of a prosecutor's office.
25
You want to make sure that the culture is such that it is
you need to have the training and

Page 29
1
unthinkable for a prosecutor to willfully or intentionally
violate the rules or cut a corner. I'll give you an example of
how we have all the trainings, right? Like you have. And you're
supposed to have. And new mandatory trainings you're supposed to
have to make sure that everyone understands the rules, because
sometimes these prosecutors are
complicated case, people make mistakes sometimes. But the
important thing to do is make sure that they know what questions
to ask. I have a rule of thumb in my office, which was handed
young, they deal with a
10
down to me when I was a young prosecutor, by my supervisor. And
11
it's essentially this: You can parse the words of rule 16 or
12
whatever the discovery obligations are, very finely, like a
13
strict constructionist, such that you can make an argument that
14
you don't have to turn over some batch of documents or some
15
batch of material. And I say, essentially, that if you have
16
three or four prosecutors in a room in my office, and the
17
conversation about whether or not particular thing should be
18
turned over or not, and it goes on for more than four or five
19
minutes, meaning that there's an argument to be made within the
20
rule, that it doesn't need to be turned over, and there's an
21
argument to be made that it does need to be turned over, you
22
turn it over. There's no reason not to. And you don't have to
23
you don't have to glide up to the line. And you don't have to
24
make arguments in favor of not doing the thing that's really no
25
skin off your back. Just give it to them. And I think the

Page 30
1
culture should be, and is, I hope, overproduction of things and
I think that's a very important thing to do. The second thing
that's very important in making sure that you don't have
prosecutorial misconduct and you don't have bad things happen
and people skirting the rules of justice, this is true again of
any institution; the way you have an ethical institution is make
sure that you have ethical people. And so the most time that we
spend on any particular thing, is actually often not on cases.
Not any particular case. It's on who we hire. The hiring
10
coordinator is right here, [PH 00:38:57] Neil Corwin. You should
11
see him after if you have an interest. And he will tell you how
12
many hours and hours and hours
13
is true
14
size. You go through several rounds and at the end, you
15
interview with the United States Attorney and we are looking at
16
people who we hire as much for, if not more, actually, for their
17
sense of integrity, their sense of fairness, their sense of
18
respect for justice and the law and doing things in the right
19
way, and obeying the rules, as we are about their academic
20
credentials. Every once in a while, I've told this story before,
21
I always ask the question, for people who want to be in our
22
criminal division, "How are you going to feel knowing the kind
23
of power you're going to have and essentially by definition, if
24
you do your job correctly, you will in many ways be the
25
proximate cause for real human beings to be separated from their
I personally, I don't think this
in other institutions where you know, we have a decent

Page 31
1
liberty for long periods of time. How are you going to feel
about that?" And every once in a while, somebody answers a
little too gung ho. And every once in a while someone says,
"Well, I have no problem with that. And that would be great,
because they did bad things." And when I sense that, you know
what we do?
[00:40:01]
We don't hire that person. And we don't care what clerkship they
had, and we don't care how
what their class rank was at NYU Law
10
School or any other law school, because that's a problem waiting
11
to happen. And I hope that people appreciate that and know that.
12
So it's important to have rules, it's important to have a good
13
culture in the place, and it's even more important to make sure
14
that the people you're hiring, even before they've gotten the
15
training, before they understand what the rules are, and they've
16
never been a prosecutor before, to make sure that they have good
17
hearts and that they are ethical people who are full of
18
integrity and want to have that reputation for the rest of their
19
careers.
20
Dean Trevor Morrison: That's a very powerful, I think very
21
meaningful statement. If you think less about your office, and
22
more obviously you don't speak for offices other than yours, but
23
just give us your sense of nationally
24
the Ninth Circuit who said, I think, a couple of years ago, that
25
we have an epidemic of Brady violations in the land. That this
it was Judge Kozinski on

Page 32
1
is, in other words, a huge problem, that's going to be solved,
maybe in the ways you talk about, but that it's a problem of
that scale and scope. Do you agree with that?
Preet Bharara: I only know what I see in my office and I don't
find that to be a problem in our office. I know a little bit
more about the Justice Department as a whole and there were
issues with disclosure, I know, in a case against Ted Stevens,
right about the time that I became the United States Attorney,
and the Department
to its credit, I think
all the way up to
10
the top of its leadership, took a lot of steps to make sure to
11
do all these things that I've been talking about, and making
12
sure that the message is understood by every prosecutor in the
13
Federal System, that you do things the right way. And also to
14
make sure that even inadvertent mistakes are not made by having
15
better training, everyone had to revise its office's discovery
16
policy. We had countless hours of meetings to make sure that we
17
spent time with every single criminal prosecutor in our office.
18
And it's a lot of them, to make sure they understood the rules,
19
to make sure that you never get up close to the line, to make
20
sure that the public knew what our role was going to be. And I
21
don't
22
System. I'm not fully familiar with all of what Judge Kozinski
23
said. I think there's some people who tend not to agree with him
24
on that and on some other things as well. [Laughter] But you
25
know, I think we're doing a decent job.
and I think that has been effective in the Federal

Page 33
1
Dean Trevor Morrison: Other questions? Here, yes.
Amor: Hi, I'm Amor, 1L. I'm a huge fan of your work in Albany
and I was wondering, the sort of work that you've done, pulling
indictments for people like Dean Skelos, understanding that that
case is going to trial in a month, so I'm not asking for
specifics, but you've been able to do work there that a lot of
both state and federal officials have been trying to do for a
years. I was wondering if you could comment on the sort of
tactics and strategies that have enabled you to be successful,
10
get indictments where others have failed.
11
Preet Bharara: Yeah, I can't speak about what other people do
12
and what their focus is and how they arrange their priorities. I
13
mean, I'm lucky to have, none of this
14
by the way. I have amazing men and women in my office who are
15
prosecutors, investigators, paralegals, staff, FBI agents, and
16
they did all the work. And I think you see this in all the areas
17
of law where we operate. I like to say we always work within the
18
constraints of the law, but like to think out of the box. The
19
folks in my office, historically, have been and continue to be,
20
aggressive. They also tend to be tireless, and they also tend to
21
be fearless. And I think if you combine all of those things, and
22
you do the tedious, hard work of every day, looking at every
23
document, making sure you're asking for all the right documents,
24
making sure you're connecting all the right dots, making sure
25
you're looking at where the money is going, and you have
I didn't do any of this,

Page 34
1
patience, you can make these cases. I'll give you, as I'm
talking, I'm realizing another thing. You know, there are a lot
of cases with people that we start, and we investigate a lot of
things. People think they know everything we're looking at. You
don't. There are many, many high
have looked at, that you have no idea about, and we quietly
close the case because it's not proper to bring a case. Either
because there's not enough evidence, or because no crime was
actually committed. I mean, we read the newspapers too. And we
high profile things that we
10
see you know, we have whistleblowers come in and tell us things,
11
and we open up those cases. Now some of them, on day one, you
12
don't know if there's ever going to be a case. You don't know if
13
the law is there for you. You don't know if the facts are going
14
to be there for you, you don't know if the statute of
15
limitations is going to be long enough. And I think it may be
16
I'm not criticizing any office, but I do sometimes think that an
17
advantage that I have in my office, that I inherited
18
create this
19
if there's not going to be a payoff at the end. This goes for
20
financial, complex financial fraud. You know, we brought this
21
case against Toyota, took us four years. Four plus years of
22
slogging through documents, getting them translated. First
23
brought from Japan, translated from the Japanese, because I have
24
tireless, dogged, investigators and prosecutors. I think there
25
are places where they have more limited resources, or they don't
I didn't
is that we're prepared to make the investment even

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1
have quite the time horizon.
[00:45:00]
and I think is it worth spending months, and months, and moths
on something that may never pan out.
attitude.
significant, even if we don't know at the end of the day there's
going to be a provable crime, we still do it, and some of those
things pay off and I think that's what you saw in some of these
public corruption cases, all of which, by the way, are really
We don't have that
If something is worth looking at and we think it's
10
difficult to prosecute and really difficult to prove.
11
Dean Trevor Morrison:
12
Susan: In, my name's Susan [INDISCERNIBLE 00:45:37] and I'm a
13
Hauser scholar at the center and I'm from Switzerland.
14
a fan of yours.
15
Preet Bharara: Let's start with one and see how we do.
16
Susan:
17
outside perspective when you bring world financial institutions
18
to justice, there's also a multiple authorities, sort of,
19
prosecuting them.
20
competition between different prosecutors, Department of
21
Justice, SEC, and so on, when you go after a case?
22
moment when you pull back because somebody else is doing it?
23
The second question is: you talked about resources. So my
24
question would be: do you get a part of those huge fines that
25
you're actually reaping?
Other Questions.
Right here, yes.
I'm also
I have three questions.
They're short questions.
The first question is from an
So how do you experience this cooperation and

Is there a
Page 36
1
Preet Bharara: No.
Susan:
Preet Bharara: No.
Preet Bharara:
Susan:
Preet Bharara: If you saw the car I drive to work every day,
you'd know the answer to that question.
Susan:
Does this go to your office or not?
You personally don't.
No.
See, that was a short question.
And the third question: you've had an unusually long
10
tenure, the dean said.
So my personal question to you would be:
11
where will you be five years from now.
12
Preet Bharara: I don't know.
13
thing.
14
you're a fan of the work. You clearly are not in the Swiss
15
banking industry.
16
Susan:
17
Preet Bharara: Really?
18
that's not a fan.
19
you do those kinds of financial cases.
20
case against BNP, the largest bank in France also.
21
not fans and it's the nature of the world now not just in the
22
financial area but especially in the financial area, that there
23
are a lot of regulators, there are a lot of prosecutors, there
24
are a lot of people who have some stake.
25
the Manhattan DA's office.
Maybe I'll back here doing a
In respect to your first question, and I appreciate that
They're not fans.
I'm not sure.

Okay, well, there's a particular bank
So look, it's difficult, particularly when

We brought, you know, a
They're also
In that case, you had
You had the U.S. attorney's office,

Page 37
1
you had main justice, you had the Fed, the Federal Reserve, and
you had to coordinate very carefully because if you have just a
rogue going out and willy-nilly doing a lot of things and taking
actions and we also had DF, the Department of Financial Services
in New York, and you're not coordinating, you can cause havoc
and unintended havoc and that's not a good thing.
becomes difficult because everyone has a different mission and
the SEC has a different mandate.
has a different mandate an a different mission from the U.S.
Sometimes, it
It overlaps some but the CES
10
attorney's office, which is different from the Manhattan, the
11
Manhattan DA's office, by the way, can keep all the money and
12
they're spending it lavishly. I don't mean him personally, but
13
the office.
14
think it's only responsible and mature and I think some people,
15
you know, you watch the movies and they think there's all
16
fighting and bickering all the time and the feds show.
17
experience has been, separate and apart from the financial
18
context, has been terrific.
19
things I think would have been unimaginable a few years ago, not
20
just coordination locally in the United States, but
21
internationally.
22
called Black Shades that involved, I stood up when we announced
23
the case and we had a global map, consistently our jurisdiction,
24
and it had 19 different countries shaded because law enforcement
25
actions took place in a coordinated way in the time difference
So you have to be very careful about that and I
Our
In the cyber area, we have done
We brought a gigantic cyber case two years ago

Page 38
1
and everything else in 19 different countries to take down
cybercriminals in all those different places or do searches,
court authorized searches in all those different places, and
that was coordination between the FBI and maybe the secret
service and the prosecutor's office and different ambassadors.
It was a crazy, complicated, difficult thing to do but, as we
become more global and the world becomes smaller and criminal
conduct can take place, you know, a single criminal act can
actually involve 13 countries now, right, because you have money
10
flowing.
You have visiting happening and you have emails going
11
through.
We're going to have to get even better and better at
12
that kind of coordination if we're going to make the world a
13
safer place.
14
We've got time for maybe one or two more.
15
Amine: Hi, I'm Amine.
I'm a 3L here and you've been in public
16
service for a long time so I was wondering if you could talk a
17
little bit about how sort of politicized it has become over your
18
tenure and what advice you have for somebody who's starting out
19
and kind of sees that it's a little daunting to see sort of it
20
pulling apart
21
[00:50:00]
22
between parties and all that kind of stuff.
23
Preet Bharara: Yeah, I mean, there are different ways to serve
24
in public service and I'd like to think that I serve right now
25
in the least politicized office that you can serve in.

We are
Page 39
1
known often as the sovereign district of New York.
We are known
as, and we're proud of being known as the most independent
prosecutor's office around.
invent that but I hope I've carried that tradition on and that
means independence, not only from politics, but independence
from wavering public opinion and I would search for places where
you can have that autonomy and you can have that independence
but even the Department of Justice is not immune to that kind of
thing.
Historically, again, I didn't
When I served in the Senate, the most formative
10
experience I had, now going back a few years when you people
11
were a bit younger, was an investigation while I was in the
12
Senate on the judiciary committee investigating the Justice
13
Department itself for its sudden firing of nine Unites States
14
attorneys back at the end of 2006 and that entire investigation
15
which I helped lead with the senator and with those staff
16
members on the majority side was about whether or not the
17
Department of Justice had been politicizing the way in which it
18
went about cases, had been politicizing the way in which it went
19
about hiring people, and had been politicizing the way in which
20
it got rid of the United States attorneys and sadly, one of the
21
outcomes of that, that's detailed at great length in Inspector
22
General's report, is that there were people at the Department of
23
Justice that I loved, that I served in, and I didn't expect to,
24
but am proud to serve in again, was hiring people, and this may
25
be especially relevant to folks like you, into their honors

Page 40
1
program and into their internship program, which are very
difficult and prestigious things to get, and you should all
apply for them now because now they fixed the problem.
were people in the department, admittedly, and this was found
extensively, who were paying attention to what the political
affiliations and what the ideology was of their particular
applicant, which is, that's a dagger to the heart of the
integrity of an institution that's been around for a very, very
long time and whose very name has the word 'justice' in it.
There
In
10
our office, we don't know what religion you are, we don't know
11
if you're a democrat or a republican, we just care about doing
12
the right thing, and that's what the Justice Department has
13
always stood for and should always stand for.
14
for a place where you can be as independent as possible but also
15
know that wherever you go, you can still be a voice to make sure
16
that that place lives up to the ideals of independence that it
17
should.
18
19
Stephanie Wily: I don't have a microphone but I'll.
20
21
Stephanie Wily: Thank you.
22
I'm a 1L and you spoke briefly about mass incarceration which is
23
a problem that disproportionately affects minority communities.
24
I read that I can comment an issue is lack of diversity among
25
prosecutors.
So try to search
Last question if there is one.
Yes.
Let's just wait for one.

Hi, my name is Stephanie Wily and
Can you just speak a bit about diversity in your

Page 41
1
office?
Preet Bharara: Yeah, so I'm glad you asked that question and
Neil Corwin, who I mentioned already, cares not only about
making sure we're hiring the best possible people, but we have a
deep commitment to making sure that our office looks like what
America looks like and we should be able to do better at that
and so I'm glad you mentioned it because at every opportunity I
get and Neil gets and other folks from my office get, we would
encourage people, whoever you are and whatever your sexual
10
orientation is, whatever your ethnicity is, whatever your
11
religion is whatever your gender is, to apply to become
12
prosecutors and I think that not only would you get a better
13
sort of overall vision for how people should prosecute things
14
but I also think there would be greater public confidence in
15
prosecutor's offices.
16
issue of diversity in police forces because that's the most
17
direct way in which people see an interaction with law
18
enforcement.
19
to a federal prosecutor but I think that we need to do a better
20
job of making sure we're recruiting from everywhere and from
21
everyone.
22
should think long and hard about whether or not, in public
23
service, they can do a valuable service to the country generally
24
and most importantly, but also to the particular communities
25
that they're identified with if they come in as prosecutors and
I think probably more in the news, the
It's with the local police department as opposed
I also think that people in various communities

Page 42
1
as I just said, and as I think people note but not often enough,
a good prosecutor who exercises discretion properly can do more
to save people than a defense lawyer who represents one client
at a time and I think if people had more of a sense that that
was true, I think we'd do a better job.
specific word on diversity with respect to women.
be very candid about this, we don't have an even number of women
and men in our criminal division.
for reasons that are not clear to me and I've asked the question
I want to say a
So our, I'll
We do in our civil division
10
of Neil and we've talked about this and we've hosted events.
We
11
had a very good event recently for all women law clerks in the
12
southern district in the second circuit to come and talk to, and
13
I left and I wanted there to be a candid discussion about what
14
life was like
15
[00:55:00]
16
as a woman as a prosecutor.
17
about that but for whatever reason, you know, when I went to law
18
school, I graduated.
19
Columbia in New York and when I graduated, there was still,
20
don't tell them I said that at Columbia.
21
more men in my graduating class than women and I remember
22
thinking people would say well, as years go by, as the number of
23
men and women graduating from law school becomes more even,
24
particularly the elite institutions like this one, you're going
25
to start to see more evenness in partnership ranks at firms and
I think there's some misconceptions
I went to the second-best law school, at
There were still a lot

Page 43
1
more evenness in prosecutor ranks, I guess. the first one
certainly has not happened, has not come close to happening, and
even in our office, we're not getting, we've analyzed the
applications, and Neil can corroborate this.
that we're getting an even number of applications and we're
disproportionately hiring men.
about in proportion to the applications we get.
reason, we're getting disproportionately fewer numbers of
applications from women to become federal prosecutors, even
It's not the case
We're actually hiring probably

For whatever
10
though the ranks, I think I don't know what it is here but I
11
think it's the case that in many law schools there are more
12
women than men who are graduating in a particular class.
13
14
1L class has over 50% women, 54% women from the last class.
15
Preet Bharara: So I don't know.
16
concerns me and we were talking about it and we talk about it
17
with the women supervisors in our office and with Neil.
18
would encourage people.
19
any inkling that this is the kind of thing that you want to do,
20
I would get more information about it.
21
would inquire.
22
people who are in the job and can tell you about it and I think
23
people don't appreciate.
24
I think there's a lot to balance in life and I've had those
25
issues in my own life and I think what people don't fully
In a lot of schools, it's around 50.
Our
So that bothers me and it
So I
Before you decide to apply, if you have
I would go to forums.
I would talk to, it's not that hard to find
There's one speculation about women.

Page 44
1
appreciate about being a prosecutor, it's a hard job.
We work
really hard and we work long hours but as compared to working in
a law firm, which is also a hard job and you have to work a lot
of hours, you often have, and this is counterintuitive to some
people, a lot of flexibility when you work in a prosecutor's
office, particularly if you are a senior prosecutor and you're
trying to have a family, I mean, I had, I'm not a woman and I
didn't bear my children, but I had three kids while I was an
assistant U.S. attorney and I didn't miss a birthday.
I didn't
10
miss things because I had the ability because I had so much
11
autonomy.
12
making me stay at the office until 1:00 am to proofread a
13
document.
14
work on a Tuesday because the brief was on Thursday so I could
15
go to a birthday on Wednesday or I could go to a recital.
16
those things you can do and I think people, it's another reason
17
to go into public service, often, not always, but often it's the
18
case, you have more autonomy over your life, as how you operate
19
during your day and what time you come in and what time, not
20
always, than you might in private practice.
21
know, a myth that can be exploded a little bit.
22
23
that Neil may need to go into witness protection or he's going
24
to be inundated with application after this.
25
for being here today.
I didn't have a partner breathing down my neck and
I could choose, if I wanted, to make sure I did my
All
I hope that's, you
It's a very persuasive case.
So much so,
Thank you so much

Page 45
1
Preet Bharara: Absolutely.
Please join me in thanking him.
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Thanks.
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abhorrent 10:21
ability 7:6 25:20
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able 12:25 33:6
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Absolutely 45:1
abused 26:7
academic 30:19
accomplished
10:23 13:9
accountable 8:21
12:21 13:8,13
14:4 16:6 28:3
accounting 27:12
accounts 25:11
accusations 16:13
act 38:8
actions 37:4,25
active 11:18
addition 20:3
adhere 16:2
admittedly 40:4
adolescents 11:2
advance 3:23 6:24
6:25
advantage 34:17
advice 38:18
advocating 13:24
affairs 23:3
affect 18:7
affiliations 40:6
afford 16:13
afternoon 2:1 28:1
agencies 25:2
agents 33:15
aggressive 33:20
ago 24:19 25:1,22
31:24 37:19,21
agree 21:1 32:3,23
agrees 6:21
Albany 15:16
18:12 33:2
allegations 12:5
allocation 23:15
amazing 5:6 33:14
ambassadors 38:5
ambit 24:2
amendments 13:25
America 3:25 41:6
Amine 38:15,15
Amor 33:2,2
amount 10:8 24:8,9
28:18
amounts 20:9
analogy 21:20
analyzed 43:3
angry 9:6
announced 14:13
37:22
anonymity 26:12
answer 8:9 9:5,6
18:11,18,20,20
36:8
answers 31:2
anybody 12:19
apart 10:2 17:23
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apparently 3:6
23:8
appears 15:14
applaud 17:12
applicant 40:7
application 44:24
applications 43:4,5
43:7,9
applies 9:7 10:17
apply 17:8,15
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appreciate 31:11
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appreciated 24:18
appreciation 6:11
appropriate 8:21
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area 11:17 12:14
14:10 19:16 20:16
20:22 27:23 36:22
36:22 37:18
areas 6:8 33:16
arguable 22:11,12
argued 20:11
argument 6:24
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29:13,19,21
arguments 19:20
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arises 16:10,11,16
18:1
arrange 33:12
arrested 14:14 15:3
arrests 14:25,25
arrive 16:10
asked 12:14 14:2
24:3 41:2 42:9
asking 24:3 33:5,23
assistant 2:13 4:6
44:9
associate 2:22
attending 23:24
attention 10:8 22:7
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attitude 35:5
attorney 1:1 2:3,13
2:17 3:17 4:7
24:19 27:17,17
30:15 32:8 44:9
attorneys 39:14,20
attorney's 4:1 5:24
24:18 36:25 37:10
audience 3:2 19:9
27:25
AUSA 2:23
authorities 35:18
authorized 38:3
autonomy 39:7
44:11,18
avoid 11:21
aware 10:8
awareness 18:14
28:4
B
back 5:6 6:1,2,2
19:25 20:5 22:25
25:4 29:25 35:22
36:12 39:10,14
bad 12:13 24:24,24
25:20,20 30:4
31:5
balance 43:24
bank 25:11 27:4
28:23 36:17,20
banking 17:22
36:15
bars 10:16
based 9:23
basically 20:2
24:21
basis 2:19
batch 29:14,15
battle 21:7,11
bear 44:8
becoming 5:25
6:20
beginning 24:20
behaving 17:24
beings 10:6 20:25
30:25
believe 6:25 23:5,7
benefit 19:24,25
20:5
bequeath 22:14
best 6:1,21 11:21
28:20 41:4
better 3:25 4:8,10
4:11,20 6:4,18
13:14 17:4,18,25
17:25 18:13 21:2
21:19 32:15 38:11
38:11 41:6,12,19
42:5
beyond 10:16
16:20
Bharara 1:1 2:3,6
2:25 5:21 8:6,9
11:22 12:8,19
15:25 19:3,6,13
21:6 22:8 24:1
25:10 26:19 28:7
28:10 32:4 33:11
35:15 36:1,3,5,7
36:12,17 38:23
41:2 43:15 45:1
bickering 37:16
big 6:11 7:25 24:21
26:14

biggest 26:2
Bill 15:1
birthday 44:9,15
bit 3:4,4 4:10,10,11
4:11,20 10:1
19:11 22:17,18,20
32:5 38:17 39:11
40:25 44:21
Black 37:22
block 13:9
blue 18:5
BNP 36:20
board 27:9
bodegas 14:22
body 21:13
bones 27:13,16
bothers 43:15
bounds 17:6
box 33:18
Brady 31:25
Bratton 15:1
breathing 44:11
brief 44:14
briefly 40:22
briefs 20:11
bring 7:5,7 12:2
34:7 35:17
bringing 12:12
brings 7:5
broad 23:19 24:2
broadcasting 14:24
broader 9:7
broadly 5:20 15:13
broken 7:16
brought 12:4 13:17
19:14 21:14 34:20
34:23 36:19 37:21
Brown 28:1,1,9
buddy 22:14 23:1
bunch 13:4
businesses 17:18
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call 5:11 9:11 14:11
called 8:13 14:11
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candid 42:7,13
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car 36:7
care 6:22,22 11:13
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career 2:11 4:14
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careful 16:1 37:13
carefully 37:2
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carried 39:4
case 5:13 6:25
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cases 7:4,5,7 11:21
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30:8 34:1,3,11
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category 22:5
cause 7:25 30:25
37:5
center 35:13
CEO 22:12 27:8,17
cert 18:23 21:5,10
22:6
certain 12:12 14:3
22:5
certainly 3:7 43:2
CES 37:8
change 17:18
changed 18:22 23:8
changes 17:2
character 17:25
charges 15:3
charging 7:20
chemicals 14:20
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chief 3:16 27:5
children 44:8
China 14:20
choose 4:22 44:13
churches 16:18
CIA 27:18
circuit 18:20 19:12
19:12,19 20:1,12
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Circuit's 18:22
city 6:1 10:11,20
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civil 10:9 42:8
claim 22:23
clarity 20:22
class 3:17 31:9
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clear 42:9
clearly 5:12 9:23
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clerked 21:8
clerks 42:11
clerkship 4:3 31:8
client 42:3
close 32:19 34:7
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collar 18:6,6
college 23:1
Columbia 2:22
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combination 5:8
combine 33:21
come 6:2 34:10
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comes 20:5 24:14
Comey 26:1
comfortable 13:2
commence 6:12
comment 33:8
40:24
Commissioner
9:24 15:1
commit 10:4 16:6
commitment 5:10
41:5
committed 10:13
26:8 34:9
committee 39:12
communities 40:23
41:21,24
community 4:11
companies 26:22
company 22:13
27:3,4,9,9,13
compared 44:2
competition 27:11
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complaint 15:4
complete 7:22
completely 15:11
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complex 34:20
complicated 2:20
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computers 24:25
concept 25:22
concerns 43:16
conditions 10:5,10
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conduct 12:13,15
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confidence 23:5
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21:15,15 22:15
37:21 38:14
types 11:3
typically 4:1
update 27:22
uphill 21:7,11
upholding 12:20
upstate 11:7
urgent 22:7
urgently 23:21
use 10:21 19:2
24:25
usual 8:25
usually 4:3
U.S 2:3,13,16 4:1,6
5:24 36:25 37:9
44:9

Page 56
witnesses 6:7,7
woman 42:16 44:7
women 33:14 42:6
42:7,11,21,23
43:9,12,14,14,17
43:23
wonder 7:16 11:7
wondering 33:3,8
38:16
woo 2:5
word 8:11 19:6
40:9 42:6
words 19:25 20:6
29:11 32:1
work 2:20 3:2 4:16
4:21,21 7:11 8:12
10:7,9 11:2,3 18:5
19:17 23:25 33:2
33:3,6,16,17,22
36:7,14 44:1,2,3,5
44:14
worked 2:14 5:13
13:22
working 25:4 44:2
works 26:11,11
world 4:10,20 5:22
14:24 22:13,16
26:3 35:17 36:21
38:7,12
worried 23:23
worries 23:16
26:15
worry 14:21
worth 35:3,5
wouldn't 9:17
Y
yeah 5:21 11:23
28:7 33:11 38:23
41:2
year 3:14 11:18
24:10,10
years 2:12,21 5:23
13:23 19:15 24:19
25:1,22 31:24
33:8 34:21,21
36:11 37:19,21
39:10 42:22
York 2:4,17 3:16
4:7 11:10,16
14:22 15:15 37:5
39:1 42:19
young 15:5 26:6
29:6,10
younger 39:11
0
00:05:00 5:15
00:10:00 9:3
00:15:00 12:18
00:16:01 13:12
00:20:00 16:3
00:25:02 19:22
00:25:56 20:13
00:25:57 20:14
00:30:00 23:12
00:33:31 26:3
00:35:02 27:7
00:38:57 30:10
00:40:01 31:7
00:45:00 35:2
00:45:37 35:12
00:50:00 38:21
00:55:00 42:15
3L 38:15
30 22:21
5
50 22:13,13 43:13
50% 43:14
54% 43:14
6
6,000 9:22
7
75 8:9
9
90% 21:18
1
1L 33:2 40:22
43:14
1:00 44:12
10 13:8 22:20 25:1
10% 9:14
100 21:14
13 38:9
14% 9:14
16 29:11
18 11:22
19 37:24 38:1
2
2L 28:1
20 22:21
2006 39:14
2009 2:16 21:14
3


Skelos Legal Team Letter To Court

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Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41 Filed 10/14/15 Page 1 of 4

Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41 Filed 10/14/15 Page 2 of 4

October 14, 2015

Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41 Filed 10/14/15 Page 3 of 4

October 14, 2015

Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41 Filed 10/14/15 Page 4 of 4

Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41-1 Filed 10/14/15 Page 1 of 2

Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41-1 Filed 10/14/15 Page 2 of 2

Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41-2 Filed 10/14/15 Page 1 of 57

Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41-2 Filed 10/14/15 Page 2 of 57

The Forum A Conversation with US Attorney Preet Bharara

Gage Spencer & Fleming LLP

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Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41-2 Filed 10/14/15 Page 3 of 57

Dean Trevor Morrison: Good afternoon! Welcome. It's great to see

Preet Bharara: I know.

time in the limited time we have with an extended introduction,

but he has of course had and is in the midst of having a

spectacular career of public service to be sure that has had

many elements. It started with several years in private

practice, and then as an Assistant U.S. Attorney in the office

he now runs. He worked for Senator Schumer in Washington. I

Attorney for the Southern District of New York. That's an

extremely long tenure in that job, in that very demanding job,

and of course we all read on a fairly regular basis about the

work of that office, which is a large and complicated and

sophisticated place. You spent several years in a large firm as

an associate after graduating from Columbia Law School, and then

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Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41-2 Filed 10/14/15 Page 4 of 57

who used to work for me who are in the audience, so a special

shout-out to you guys. I realize that you're going to learn a

your eating habits, so it will be fun to watch you guys eat

lunch. I thought maybe I would have a sandwich but apparently

not. So when I was in law school certainly, and I think even

before that, I thought that I wanted to become a lawyer, and

I've said many times in seventh or eighth grade I read Inherit

the Wind and thought that's kind of a cool thing to do, to be a

specifically a prosecutor, and I think I really decided that's

what I wanted to do when I took trial practice in my third year

of law school, it solidified it for me, with somebody who then

became the Attorney General, Judge Mukasey, who taught a class

haven't already, to take trial practice. Even if you're not sure

there was no more exhilarating thing to do as a lawyer, and then

to do it in a way where you're only goal is to do the right

thing in the right way and to advance the interests of justice,

not represent any particular but represent the public in the

United States of America. I thought, what could be better than

And then when I got to law school, I realized

and I hope many of you take this opportunity if you

TransPerfect Legal Solutions

Case 1:15-cr-00317-KMW Document 41-2 Filed 10/14/15 Page 5 of 57

The U.S. Attorney's office typically doesn't hire

directly out of law school, sometimes directly out of a

clerkship but not usually, so they want people to get some

experience. So I went to a firm, and I had it very firmly in my

mind throughout my time practicing in a firm

Attorney, and if I could in the Southern District of New York

because I thought there's no better thing to do than to wake up

community a little bit better a little bit safer, and that's

what people in the office strive to do. And I would encourage as

many people as possible, whatever you think about doing, to

spend some portion of your time in your career as lawyers in