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1. Remington 7600 pump rifle and lever action shotgun. (10 replies)
2. AR variants Solidworks Models (1 replies)
3. .308 Savage FP10 (8 replies)
4. Remington 870 Shotgun (6 replies)
5. .32 NAA carbine? (10 replies)
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10. 50 BMG (44 replies)

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Fingerless December 13th, 2001, 04:03 PM

I'm putting aside cash until I get enough scratch to get a truly amazing firearm-the 50 BMG. I've always wanted one and want
to make sure to get one on case actions are took to ban them. I figure I've got 5 years to save. I don't thinka ban will
happen in Bush's time. So I have a while to save, but would like to stay in the $5,000 range. The only rifle I'm familiar with is
the one I've seen made by Desert Arms. If anyone has shot one or looked at them I'd appreciate any insights, also on loads/
bullets. I was thinking I could machine effective bullets for cheaper than they are available. (About a buck or more, I think)
Just give me your thoughts and which ones I should check out. It will have to be ordered no doubt, I have yet to see one in a
local gunshop http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Thanks
nbk2000 December 14th, 2001, 05:23 AM

I saw a barrett .50 at a gun shop once. They had it sitting (unchained http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon25.gif ) on the
glass display case. The fucker was HUGE!
Imagine lifting 3 sacks of potatos at the same time. Then make it 4 feet long.
5+1 rounds of .50 goodness. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Oh, and a $7,000 http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif price tag.
Boy, talk about serious temptation for snatch and dash!
And you're not the only one looking at these....
The cross-pollination between Army's Delta and the FBI's HRT has resulted in other activities that the academy source
described as "scary." One such development is the HRT's training for the possible use of the Barrett .50- caliber rifle against
suspects.
"One HRT operator told me they could use Barretts against people... to shoot someone hiding behind something. I pointed
out that if a person was hiding behind something, the shooter could not positively identify the target. "The HRT's training with
Barretts was confirmed by the Army Special Forces source who had worked at Quantico. Furthermore, he said he had observed
HRT snipers using Barretts to train to shoot people with Norwegian Raufus armor-piercing, incendiary, high-explosive
ammunition (API HE) at ranges as close as 500 meters - for all intents and purposes, point blank. (By comparison, the Barrett
is routinely used to destroy enemy equipment out to 1,800 meters. This is in contrast to conventional FBI SWAT teams, using
.308-caliber rounds on 300-meter targets.)
From http://www.cybernaute.com/earthconcert2000/Militfbi.htm
Seems the FBI isn't happy with just automatic rifles. Seems they know want .50 rifles for blasting those pesky people who
refuse to stand still to allow the FBI sniper a clean shot at them.
Now we're forcing them to have to work at hitting us through walls, cars, and even whole houses.
All the more reason for building revetments and berms around your house. Never know when those pesky .50 bullets will come
wizzing by.
What's next, Quad Fifties? Mini-Guns? Vulcan Cannons? http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.
phyrelord December 14th, 2001, 10:41 PM

You can order some pretty cheap single shots. One of the latest issues of guns and ammo had some .50 bmgs the serbu is
the cheapest, lightest, but has the most recoil it's only 2000 but you are put on a waiting list go to www.serbu.com (http://
www.serbu.com) for the bfg. Other sites with fifty cals is www.statearms.com, (http://www.statearms.com,) www.barrettrifles.com,
(http://www.barrettrifles.com,) and www.armalite.com. (http://www.armalite.com.)
these are all coming out of the guns and ammo mag. The guy that tested them says they are great as long as you don't hold
your mouth open, after a few rounds your teeth hurt from the shockwaves. I plan on buying a serbu soon
[This message has been edited by phyrelord (edited December 14, 2001).]
MacCleod December 15th, 2001, 02:37 AM

If you have an AR-15,check out the Ferret 50-it's a 50 cal. upper that fits on an AR lower.
http://ferret50.com/
Price is $1500 through the website,or $1330 if purchased through 37mm.com.

Maddi Griffin http://www.maadigriffin.com/ does offer a kit for $125 to build a single shot .50 for under $500.
http://www.maadigriffin.com/model92.jpg
You'll need a 36" lathe, milling machine, and TIG welder though.
Start buying the ammo now! Because they realize that a gun without bullets is just a club. They've already stopped all
transfers of military surplus .50 ammo. So eventually there won't be anymore available.
Don't bother with the plain ball ammo. Get the API (Armor Piercing Incendiary) or APIT (API Tracer) since that'll be the first to
run out.
------------------

They used to sell 'almost finished' rifles too,'till the fed's came in and confiscated them (no serial #'s!).Can't wait for more
info on the MG-6!.
------------------
"That which does not kill us,makes us stronger"
Fingerless December 15th, 2001, 09:33 AM

NBK, that kit is interesting! Due to the extremely low cost I might just have to make one, I'll update you guys if I decide to do
it. I already have a lathe, milling machine, and a TIG welder-lucky me http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
I've been looking around for API ammo, but all I can find is your run of the mill soft lead and copper bullets. Where can I get
API's or incendiarys?
Fingerless December 15th, 2001, 09:44 AM

Well, I just got done looking at the sight for that kit and found out that thanks to the assholes at the BATF I won't be
assembling my very own 50 BMG anytime soon, it appears.I was all hyped up that I would be able to afford something as
magnificent as a 50 BMG! Hopefully the feds will slacken and they can sell them again.....Damn I'm pissed now.
If anyone has any info on why they can't sell anymore or when they will be able to re sell I'd appreciate it. I'm in the process
of e-mailing them now.
HMTD Factory December 15th, 2001, 12:12 PM

Completely Outrageous Story! my moral went
down 200 points.
Here's why they are outta business now.
http://www.gunnery.net/news/batf-raids-maadi-griffin.html
Read how the two agents framed Steward by asking him to "tighten the scope" on an AR-15, then pulled out the badge?
Outrageous.
There's no use registering guns neither, when

they want to get you, they will "FIND" an un-registered gun in your home.

Well the first day hearing relieved me a
little.
http://www.gunnery.net/news/BATF-Stewart.html
As to ways to get a decent .50BMG, without registering a new receiver, or staggering cost, AR-15 upper is probably the way to
go, like MacCleod pointed. (There is
a company that makes grenade launcher style
.50BMG that mounts under AR-15, but the gun need registering, and the company does not have a website)
Home-build a .50BMG from scratch is a gunsmith work not even every gunsmith has experience with. That's why when I hear
someone said he wants to build a .50BMG, I
flinch a little. (Sometime ago a newbie guy asked if he can build a .50BMG from a 12Ga shotgun action, the question sent me
skyward)
I wouldn't recommend lathe turned bullets to save cost, lead is too soft for that pressure, copper is too hard for some loads.
If you want to save, there are pulled bullets
from military surplus, and they too come in AP, APIT, etc.
nbk2000 December 15th, 2001, 04:53 PM

The maadi griffin site STILL sells a book for $125 that tells you how to build it yourself for <$500.
They also sell sabots for .308 that launch .223 at 4,000+FPS. .50 sabots launch a .308 at a mile a second. http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
As for ammo, look in the "Shotgun News". Looks like a newspaper (sort of). Everything gun related can be had there.
------------------
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited December 15, 2001).]
Fingerless December 15th, 2001, 07:06 PM
NBK, thanks, I had a copy of the shotgun news and located some bullets.
I saw the book but I think I would have trouble making the barrel and receiver. However, I could do a reasonable amount and
don't think assembling the kit would be that bad.
I read the article about him HMTD, it pissed me off even more. Especially the part about the Redhawk pistol that they "found"
in his bedroom. Argh.
NBK, I saw that mile a minute sabot for the 50-WOW!
BoB- December 15th, 2001, 07:46 PM

You would have to drill the barell, and chamber with a drill press from stock metal rod, and because the steel is "common" and
not really designed for this you would have to leave the walls of the barell really thick. A homemade .50 would be less like a
rifle, and more like a cannon.
the finished "rifle" would probably weigh over 100 pounds.
The plans probably call for a commericially made barell.
------------------
Teamwork is essential.
It lets you blame someone else.

Yeah,most of the builder's plans use a purchased surplus barrel.I dug out an old copy of the Shotgun News-The maadi-griffin
builder's kit (with all finished parts) was $1999,and the non-ffl kit (unfinished reciever) was $1824.It had a template bonded
on the reciever,showing were the cuts were to be made,which he claimed could be done with a drill and a dremel tool.Even
came with instructions on how to do the headspacing.
Not surprised that the fed's found a way to bust him,though.I spoke to the guy once about the kits (back in Dec. 99),and he
spoke rather adamantly about refusing to cooperate with any future gun laws,as he felt they were all unconstitutional.
There's a site called the Football web page-
http://fiftycaliber.i8.com/
That sells plans for a falling block type 50 cal. for $50.Not a bad looking weapon,for the price.
HMTD-do you know if that company ever finished,shipped any of those lowers?.I called about those also,and you had to pre-
pay for them-the guy said they needed the money to finish making the 1st. batch of rifles.
------------------

That Johnny .50 is one scary mutha. You see his spelling?!
LOOK OUT! REDNECKS GOT A GUN!! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
Also, I didn't see any extractor. How are you supposed to get the spent shell out, poke it out with a stick down the barrel?
Anyways, I found this thread at TFL.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92779
=============================================
Cops can't find super gun
William Kaempffer, Register staff December 13, 2001
NEW HAVEN The Westville man who allegedly stockpiled as sault weapons, bullets and hand gren ades at his parents' ho m e
had purchased a banned .50-caliber sniper rifle in May from a Seymour pawn shop, state police said.
However, the weapon has not been found, and police won't say whether Charles Cornelius, a 31-year-old laborer, had plans for
the big gun.
On Wednesday, a Superior Court judge increased bail on Cornelius, of 851 Forest Road, to $2.6 million cash, as police
prepared another arrest warrant in connection with the powerful rifle.
A warrant already had been signed by a judge in Superior Court in Derby, said state police Sgt. J. Paul Vance.
Meanwhile, police still were searching for the weapon, a Barrett 82-A1, described as a long-range sniper rifle that can fire armor
piercing and incendiary rounds up to 2,000 yards.
According to the Barrett Firearms Web site, the weapon, with a carrying case, costs $7,300. The scope is sold separately.
Barrett is located in Murfreesboro, Tenn.
During a demonstration for Congress some time ago, a Marine sniper blasted through a manhole cover with the .50-caliber
round.
"That's the big one," said Tom Diaz, who authored a study on the sale of sniper rifles for the Violence Policy Center in
Washington, D.C. "That's the one the Marine Corps is using right now in Afghanistan and the special forces used in the Persian
Gulf War. It's pretty scary."
More than a decade ago, the U.S. government sent 25 high-powered Barrett sniper rifles to a group of Muslim fighters that
included Osama bin Laden.
Here, it is illegal for civilians to possess the weapon, police said.
"The only people who can legally possess it in Connecticut are police officers and the military," said Vance, the state police
spokesman.
However, according to state Rep. Michael P. Lawlor, D-East Haven, semi-automatic .50-caliber sniper rifles still can be
purchased legally in the state and only an automatic version is outlawed. Lawlor said he plans to advance legislation next year
that would regulate the weapons.
State police were specifically searching for the gun Tuesday when they executed a search-and-seizure warrant at 851 Forest
Road, where Cornelius lived with his parents. Authorities didn't find it but did recover a cache of assault rifles, hundreds of
rounds of ammunition and volumes of hate literature. The literature included manuscripts from Matt Hale's Church of the
Creator, a white supremacist group that has held rallies in Wallingford.
Vance said police had no evidence that Cornelius had planned any attack with the weapons.
But it has become clear that he had a caustic animosity toward Hopkins School, an exclusive, private institution that neighbors
said expelled Cornelius in the 1980s. The sprawling, wooded campus is across the street from the Cornelius home.
Cornelius attended the school from 1982 to 1987 and law enforcement and neighbors confirmed that he held a longstanding
grudge. He allegedly planned to send hateful, anti-Semitic letters to a batch of alumni, sources said. It wasn't immediately
clear if any letters had been sent before police arrested him Tuesday.
"Guys like this shouldn't have any guns, let alone any gun that would you allow to shoot at an armored limousine a mile
away," Lawlor said. "These are the kind of people we're worried about."
Officials with the state police Special Licensing and Firearms Unit believe that Cornelius bought the sniper rifle in May 2001
after he stole the identity of a dead Pennsylvania resident. Under the name of Jason E. Johnson, Cornelius obtained birth
certificates, a driver's license, Social Security card and firearms permits to complete the purchase of the gun from the Seymour
Pawn Shop. The gun was illegally imported by the pawn shop from a Nevada gun dealer and turned over to Cornelius, police
said.
According to Diaz, during the Gulf War, the gun took out Iraqi armored personnel carriers at a range of 1,800 yards. At least
one of the rifles was found at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.
"This isn't a question of gun control," Diaz said. "It's a question of national security."
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?...t_id=7573&rfi=6
=============================================
Better hope the cops never arrest you and find out you have a .50. You'll NEVER make the bail.
Convict: What you in here for?
You: Shoplifting some batteries.
Convict: Why haven't you bailed out?
You: It's $2.6 million, cash.
Convict: ?! http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif
That'd make for interesting conversation, huh? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
------------------

MacCleod: If you are referring to the "grenade launcher style" .50 attachment for AR-15, I don't know if they are already
making them or selling them. I have never called them or e-mailed them.
The ad has "patend pending" printed next to the half-page size conceptual drawing. Not likely a scam(since it's a pretty good
design)
If they have trouble starting their first batch of product it's their problem. Don't send your money yet, I know I wouldn't.
The problem with small business like that is-- they can't get a grant from the government when they don't have equipments.
(If they start a business building .50BMG guns using government money, it is funny. It's funnier when the government try to
put them out of business later.)

I remember there's a company that sells a model of cheaper .50, using "lock into the barrel" design concept. It does not
require a conventional receiver : There's locking lugs and recess milled into the barrel, so a short bolt locks its lugs into the
barrel directly, loading and ejecting is direct at the breech area. (The gun is a "lock into the barrel" + "breech plug" design)
A similiar rifle can be build with modified .50 barrel blank and a homemade bolt, plus a firing mechanism. A firearm savvy
person can build a safe working one under 400$ I think. The question is : Will someone lend you a .50BMG chamber reamer?
MacCleod December 16th, 2001, 02:21 PM

Yeah,that's the one;I talked to them when I first saw the shotgun news ad probably a year,year and a half ago.I hope they
get them done before too much longer (if not done already),as the anti-gunners are trying to attach more gun restrictions to
any new anti-terror bills that will be up for vote in Jan.,and it's a safe bet they'll focus on 50's.Wouldn't mind getting one of
those under-barrel jobs myself!.
------------------
TRUTHSEEKER November 15th, 2003, 01:32 AM

List of vendors for .50 BMG arms and assecories (includes some barrel mfg's)
http://www.fcsa.org/vendors.html
MP5Guy November 15th, 2003, 02:46 PM

The AR-50's made by ArmaLite are redily available both used and new. Checkout GunBroker.com or GunsAmerica.com . Priced
under $2500.00 alota umph for the buck. www.kieslersonline.com usually has .50 BMG surplus ammo made in the 80's for
$119.00 per 100 linked in 50 cal ammo cans. This is not a weapon your going to fire or want to fire 100 Rds. on a days outing
;)
Spartin13 November 17th, 2003, 09:55 PM

The plans offered for the Maadi-Griffin 50 BMG are very well written. You can make one with 36" lathe if you intend on turning
down a surplus barrel. A smaller lathe is fine if you order a barrel all ready turned for the Maadi- Griffin from Montana
Rifleman it sells for less than $300.00. Instead of a mill you can get by with a mill/vise attachment for your lathe made by
Plagram. Shot money. As far as a welder you can get by with a mig or arch if you have too. Heat treating reciever,trigger parts,
bolt and firing pin are less that $70.00 including the 4140 steel all parts should be under $500.00 total time if you know how
to work steel and buy the barrel should be under 100 hours. If you want to learn more about the 50 go to the Biggerhammer/
barret.net site (I hope I'm not breaking any rules by giving this site out. If so I'm sorry) There are many good people on that
site that know their stuff about 50's. Currently if you have an Ar lower I beleive that there are 3-5 uppers that are well made
and under $1500.00. Again if you want a very well made 50 that is very accurate for under $2000.00 the by all means the
Serbru. I believe he has a few in stock now. He also makes a carbin modle that is under 20 lbs that is very accuate. If yo want
a heaver 50 that is well made and accuate in the $2000.00-$2500.00 range then go to State Arms or Armilight both good
shooters I hope this helps
DropNazi November 25th, 2003, 05:07 AM

Any rifle in .50 BMG is an awesome rifle. The ar-15 replacement upper scares me because 2 little steel pins hold it to an
aluminum reciever... its designed for the recoil of .223 not .50 bmg. I've fired a M2HB full auto and its amazing . If you want
this gun so bad just kidnap some army guys family and hold them for ransome till you get your gun....jk floating around the
internet is a shot video of a .50 bmg single shot handgun... The brownells catalog # 56 pg.35 has a .50 bmg throating reamer
they might have a thick enough barrel blank too....
majes December 17th, 2003, 12:37 AM

Who makes a .50 BMG upper for an AR? All the .50 uppers I've seen for ARs are .50 Beowulf, not BMG. There is a big
difference. The Beowulf isn't near as long as a BMG. The round doesn't have near the velocity.
Dave the Rave December 17th, 2003, 11:38 AM

I've uploaded a Ragnar Benson's homemade .50 bmg to the FTP. I haven't any experience on building a gun THAT big, but ,
as far as i know, it looks quite simple to build.
Third_Rail December 18th, 2003, 02:31 PM

Has anyone seen any Raufoss .50 bullets kicking around for reloading with? Or maye the complete rounds? I've been
searching high and low for those and for SLAP rounds...
They'd make my upcoming Barrett M99-1 ever so much more fun.
xyz December 22nd, 2003, 12:31 AM

I have seen a place that sells raufoss and slap bullets (not assembled ammunition) but IIRC they were damn expensive and
I can't rmember where it was that sold them.
Mike76251 December 29th, 2003, 02:10 AM

You can find the .50 cal AP and sometimes the API bullets at a good gun show. They will sometimes have slight pull marks
but this doesn't really hurt anything for plinking.
A Google search shoud turn up a few suppliers.
SMAG 12B/E5 December 30th, 2003, 03:58 AM

I purchased a set of Maadi-Griffith plans when they were $125. The steel should cost $100 or less, depending of sourcing. The
weapon appears to be no problem to fabricate. Consider jobbing out the components to several competent machinists hungry
for work. Begin purchasing your ammo and ammo components now. Powder, brass, projos and dies are available from several
sources.
One of the most appealing aspects of owning a weapon of the 50 BMG caliber is the many different types of ammo
manufactured for this weapon.
12Gauge December 30th, 2003, 06:54 PM

Who makes a .50 BMG upper for an AR?
Ferret is one company that makes .50BMG uppers for the AR-15 and AR-10 lower receivers.
http://ferret50.com/
The one they show on the page is using a special "single shot lower receiver" that doesn't accept a magazine.
The ar-15 replacement upper scares me because 2 little steel pins hold it to an aluminum reciever... its designed for the recoil
of .223 not .50 bmg.
The lower receivers of the AR-15 and AR-10 series rifles don't need to be overly strong (that's why they are made of
aluminum) as all the pressure/force of the round is contained in the upper receiver. The lower receiver simply holds the fire
control parts, allows a pistol grip to be attached, and serves as a place for the magazine to go. Calvary Arms actually makes a
completely plastic AR-15 lower receiver. http://www.cavalryarms.com/
MightyQuinn March 8th, 2004, 06:13 PM

Check out the web site. It's not fancy but there are some cool videos there..
http://50caliber.net/video/bobbarrett.wmv
http://50caliber.net
http://50caliber.net/video
I would be happy to give input on a particular rifle if you have one in mind.
zaibatsu March 8th, 2004, 08:34 PM

That's a nice site man. It really makes you realise just how stupidly big these are when you compare the size of the grips
(which are relatively standard on all rifles) to the action. Btw the easiest way to complete a .50 BMG seems to me to be
completing an 80% AR lower and a .50BMG top, which aren't registered.
MP5Guy March 8th, 2004, 11:28 PM

www.wideners.com They have all the .50 BMG components you'll need.
MP
Cyclo_Knight March 23rd, 2004, 11:04 PM

While on the subject of snpier rifles:
I co-wrote a govt. grant for CheyTac's new .408 round, and I was fortunate enough to be invited to their Idaho proving
grounds. I shot off 4 rounds from their new Intervention rifle(now the m200) and I would say that the recoil rivaled even that
of the .50. However at ranges above 1000m, the KE of the .408 was MORE powerful than the standard .50 fired from a similar
rifle.
In addition, the ACCURACY was the most amazing thing that i've ever seen. Their sniper put a 4-inch grouping at 3000 Yds.
and said that he was SHAKY that day. Apparently in their controlled tests, the bullet is so stable it will form a 3-inch grouping
until it goes below mach at nearly 5000 Yds. ! :eek:
I actually HAD their Intervention rifle in my basement when I was writing the grants, and it was the most beautiful thing i've
ever held. I was toying with it in my backyard and I almost came when I worked the action!
Its a shame they didn't provide any ammunition ;)
EDIT: heres the press release for the .408 round

http://www.cheytac.com/Data/PressReleases/pressrelease.pdf
I will scan in and post the patent and the full grant later this week for any who would like to see it.
teshilo April 21st, 2004, 02:17 PM

I have idea about smooth -b ored rifle 0.50 Im rea d, what Steir Manlich er firm designed AMR(anti-material rifle ) with smooth-
bored barrel 1100mm length, caliber 15.2mm and slapped sub caliber arrow bullet 6,2mm diameter and metal-plastic shell.
Issue many manual about construction 0.50 sniper rifle-one small problem- barrels Obtain it from E-bay or local gun suppliers
may be unavailable Maybe used smooth-bored barrel for accuracy, with poor man dart shot- slapped tungsten or hard steel
drill with silver soldered fins and glued smokeless powder charge with electric or percussion igniter Smooth barrel this-only tube
This system cheap , available and ready obtainable then system based on surplus gun barrels
aikon April 21st, 2004, 02:46 PM

I have idea about smooth -b ored rifle 0.50 Im rea d, what Steir Manlich er firm designed AMR(anti-material rifle ) with smooth-
bored barrel 1100mm length, caliber 15.2mm...
Where did you read that? I'm very interested in steyr mannlicher products, but I haven't heard from that invention before. This
austrian factory produces great weapons.
SergejVictorov April 21st, 2004, 05:19 PM

Check out the following link: www.steyr-aug.com/amr.htm
In fact it's not a new invention but it was developed in the mid-1980s.
Being almost 6 feet long this rifle is more like a cannon and not very practical. I read somewhere it would require at least two
persons to be operated efficiently. Though I think the energy delivered by this bullet is much higher than a .50BMG.
At 1450 m/s the kinetic energy would be 15500 foot pounds (21000 joules) whereas a 550grs .50BMG round at 900 m/s
usually has around 10300 foot pounds (14000 joules) of energy.
JoeJablomy April 22nd, 2004, 12:17 AM

Teshilo, you can get barrels for the Vulcan, GAU-8, and even Bofors 40mm L60, but they're all rifled. For a smoothbored
barrel, you basically need a piece of high pressure pipe. Suitable thick walled stainless with a good bore finish might be
available as lab or industrial equipment.
Smoothbore barrels are not more accurate unless you have really good finned projectile.
Silver-soldering fins onto a piece of steel drill stock is probably not a good idea. It would be close to impossible to get them
aligned for even decent accuracy without professional skill and equipment.
If I were doing this, I would buy commercial tungsten carbide rod, which I think can be bought at about $8.50 for enough for a
round (3/8x3"=10x76mm)(I'm thinking for a 20mm round here), then grind a taper on the front with a groove to crimp on an
aluminum nosecone, and grind a long taper on the rear with a further reduction and threads for a flush fitting aluminum tail
piece, which I would silver-solder on (as a solid cylinder) before milling the fins precisely in line with the centerline. Then I
would assemble a sabot around the rear taper. I would make it by cutting a suitably large round bar in half and milling the cut
faces flat, then clamping the half-bars together and turning their outer surface until it forms a cylinder a few thousandths of an
inch less than the bore diameter of the gun. Then I would cut it into a "spool" shape with a roughly square profile or somewhat
squatter, with a stem extending to the rear to hold the dart shaft. The inside would be reamed to fit the tapered body of the
dart. It would be assembled with o-rings in grooves on the spool 'rings'; the rear ring would also have a crimp groove to fix it
to the cartridge case.
As for the glued-smokeless charge, the R&D for that is up to you! If I were to make a caseless cartridge, I would use partially
nitrated paper impregnated with wax, or fully nitrated paper with polyurethane varnish to seal the outside. The reason I
wouldn't try glued smokeless is that it would seriously alter the burnrate, probably unpredictably. It -could- allow you to use
powder meant for smaller caliber rifles, but as I said, the R&D is up to you.
Caseless systems do have a problem with breech sealing, though, so I would use a semi-caseless if I couldn't get suitable
brass casings. The case base would be a few cm long -just long enough to have the start of the thin walls which expand
against the chamber and provide most of the sealing, and a ring of thin rubber sheet lining it and extending just past the
edge of the base. The rest of the cartridge would be the combustible case, powder charge, and projectile. This is basically how
American combustible cased 120mm tank rounds are made. (their seal is case rubber, but I can't think of a way to improvise
a precise rubber casting)
Another reason I would use a metal base is that it would provide a convenient base for the primer to sit in. If you can't get
metal cases, you probably can't get the really big primers used in .50 BMG ammo, so you either want to mix 1-5% flash
powder with your charge (I have not tried this in a gun, but it definitely improves ignition), or use a 2-stage primer, where a
standard rifle primer fires into a tube or chamber filled with flash or BP.
Aikon: I'm pretty sure the AMR is from the early 90's. Back in the day when "High-Tech" meant all-plastic and the name
emded in "-2000" :)
world.guns.ru has a page on it:
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm
robin April 22nd, 2004, 03:21 AM

There is an interesrting discussion about the subject here :
http://www.roderuscustom.tzo.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=4087632306e8ffff;act=ST;f=3;t=331; st=0
Enjoy
Robin
Jacks Complete April 22nd, 2004, 07:01 PM

Cyclo_Knight,
there are a few bugs on that website for CheyTac. However, from the looks of things, I need a newer version of the PDF reader
- sadly WinXP is acting up and won't allow me to install anything that needs the windows installer!
Anyway. Do you have any idea what sort of muzzle energy this rifle has? Muzzle velocity? I am going to start saving, I think,
since I know you can buy anti-tank rifles in this country with the right variation, and $12000 is "only" 6,757.66!
Wonder how much a round costs?
Wicked1 April 22nd, 2004, 09:01 PM

The barret you talked about in the second post of this made me search out the barret light fifty... The M82A1
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/barett_m82a1_1.jpg
in comparison against an m16a2 standard infantry rifle:

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/barett_m82a1_m16.jpg
Newer:
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/barett_m82a3_1.jpg
one last pic (nice):

http://images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976292398-1.jpg
Ripped info of gun:
Caliber: .50 BMG (12.7 x 99mm)

Operation: Short Recoil, Semi-Automatic
Overall Length: 1448 mm
Barrel Length: 737 mm
Feed Device: 10 Round Detachable Box Magazine
Sights: 10X Telescopic :o though its not like we cant just get a better scope ;)
Weight: 12.9 kg empty
Muzzle Velocity: 854 m/s (M33 Ball) (we wouldnt use ball)
Max Effective Range: 1800 meters
Expected accuracy: 1.5 - 2.0 MOA or better
and for Fingerless: get saving,
Category: Big .50 Caliber Rifles GA#: 976292398

Model: **Barrett M82-A1 50 BMG NIB** Seller #: Seller Stock # 82a1
Price: $7,495.00 Seller: Southwest Firearms

Return Policy: 3 Days
Shipping Terms: Actual Cost
Credit Cards: Visa Mastercard AMEX Discover
FFL Dealer
;)
-PS FOR EDIT, the [img] didnt work for the pic links of some, so thats y there are urls
tiac03 April 22nd, 2004, 09:23 PM

Canadian army snipers use the McMillan TAC 50.
http://www.sniper.ws/photogallery/tac%2050.jpg
personally although not as "cool" looking as the barrett Semi auto, I like it more because of its accuracy. Supposidly kicks like
a mule though (doesn't have the dampening mechanisms like the movable barrel that the barrett has).
links on both tac 50 and canadian snipers in afghanistan:

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-ctac50.htm
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1026271952413_269
Biggerhammer.net has a barret M82A1 demo vid if anyone hasn't seen it yet.
http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/video/
Speaking of 50's a while ago some guy held up a money truck (armored truck carries money from stores and banks) with a 50
cal... I guess that is why they banned 'em (made them prohibited?)up here. (I am assuming, maybe the gov has more foolish
reasons)
zaibatsu April 22nd, 2004, 10:30 PM

Jack's Complete:
In theory you can get one, if you get the right variation on a FAC. I heard on one of the islands off the coast of England there
is a range suitable, but again having the range to shoot it is only one of the problems. The views of FAC officers varies around
the country, some will let you have a certain calibre rifle for some things, others won't. But troubles getting one aside, it would
be a hell of a lot of fun :)
Jacks Complete April 25th, 2004, 08:18 PM

I have heard that there are only three ranges in the UK that have standing orders that allow .50 BMG, but I am not sure that it
is true. Certainly the vast majority can't handle anything above .22 or some pistol calibres.
I know that Altcar can handle it, near Manchester, at up to 800 yards. Bisley can't. Those are the two biggest ranges in the UK.
There are more than a few that have danger areas that go out into the sea, and that let the military shoot anti-tank missiles
and the like, so .50 must be allowed on those... Does anyone know?
zaibatsu, I heard there was one range where the target went on a little island, and you shot at it from extreme ranges, but it
might have been a wind-up!
teshilo May 8th, 2004, 02:47 PM

Main problem for 0.50 - his wild recoil.In industrial made big calibre rifle used various methods: in 20 mm- recoilless tube, in
other- hard frame absorbing recoil and transmit it to the other surface, various compensators etc...For home made 0.50
example with recoilless tube more like..
MightyQuinn May 8th, 2004, 08:16 PM

Speaking of 50's a while ago some guy held up a money truck (armored truck carries money from stores and banks) with a 50
cal... I guess that is why they banned 'em (made them prohibited?)up here. (I am assuming, maybe the gov has more foolish
reasons)
To the best of my knowledge, there have been no .50 caliber weapons used in crimes. Edit: At least in the US.
To use a .50 to kill the driver of the armored car would be foolish. Why shoot the only person that can open the door :D
I am sure that a .50 *would* be a great way to let the driver know that he should open or you *could* put an API through his
brain pan. ;)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Rifles and Shotguns > My .50BMG Experience
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View Full Version : My .50BMG Experience

Couple monthes ago I had a chance to shoot
an AR-50 (bolt, single shot) at my local range. The experience, as I will tell, is in my hope to be a pointer for those who had never shot an .50BMG. I am not trying to make
you like the caliber less, nor do I attempt to attract you into the cult.
It w as a special event when every type of gun is welcome, except full-autos, so gun fans brought their arsenal and compare the size of muzzleblast due to (our) phallic nature.
Shotguns got topped off by .44mag, .44mag got topped off by .50AE Desert Eagle, .50AE got topped off by .300Win Mag, .300Win Mag got topped off by another guy that shot
a strange w ildcat caliber...
Then a guy came in w ith his AR-50. He w ould yell "EARS" before each time he fires.
Generously offered chances for everyone to "have a go at it", I gathered around the rifle, joining a group of wannabes.
When I was waiting for my go, I picked up a couple empty shotgun shells, and placed them
about 6 inches aw ay from the muzzlebrake. I thought the shells w ould fall off the bench from the redirected blast, but they didn't.
The shells went STRAIGHT AT ME, they flew 4 meters before hitting me in the centerchest.
BLAST IT!!
The guy in front of me is now peering through the scope on the monster machine. My eyes were wide open to see how the target reacts to 13000ft-lb of muzzle energy. He
shot, I didn't see. The gun didn't generate any flash(could be the effect of long barrel), but w hen the muzzlebrake-amplified shockwave pass through by face, I am blinded for a
fraction of second though my eyes are good and w ide open. Gave me a strange sensation a few seconds later, I didn't figure out if the sensation is "nausia" before the odd
sensation is gone.
My turn had come, now the throne and the staff is under my command. I like to put my non-shooting hand under the buttstock of a rifle when I bench-shoot a rifle, that way I
can adjust the elevation of the rifle by relaxing the hand or clenching it. I was going to lift the butt end so my hand can slip underneath it, it won't budge. Yes it actually would,
my muscle just w asn't expected to lift a 34lb weight.
After ensuring every ear is well protected, I squeezed the trigger. The recoil is a large amount, but it came in like an SKS. The total amount of recoil had moved me, and the
gun, back 2 feet away from original firing location.
"Not too bad, eh?" The owner of the AR-50 said to me, as he hammered the bolt up using his fist(I dunno if sticky bolt is a common phenomenon on .50BMG bolt-guns, so I
can't comment anything) I asked if he needs the empty case (a boxer-primed) for re-loading, he said he doesn't reload. "It doesn't matter to me if it's only military ammo, I
don't really need it to be accurate, I buy this rifle so I can have fun" he said.
"So I can have fun", good enough a reason in Canada. Since we don't have any organization or match dedicated to "the fifty" here, it's not a pity to have a .50BMG and not
tw eak it up a little.
The rifle cost 4500$CDN, while the ammo is estimated 2.50$CDN a pop.(could be less)
Currently the w orld record of 1000yard shooting is held by .50BMG rifle. It's capable of great long-range accuracy.
When it comes to destructive pow er, an experimenter once built several wooden shacks to simulate common houses. He found the projectile blasting through 6 houses! (not 6
pieces of w ood.)
When it comes to reloading costs, everything is custom job. From press to dies, from primer(huge size) to bullets.
Though the rifle/caliber do not fit my shooting needs, nothing else can replace .50BMG for its competence.
neo-crossbow July 6th, 2006, 06:43 AM

Thanks for sharing! I too remember my first .50 BMG experiance. It w on't ever be a vague memory that is for sure.
Sausagemit July 11th, 2006, 12:17 AM

In my home town of Alliance Nebraska they hold an annual .50 cal match. I have never had the opportunity to see it though and I am kicking myself everytime I miss it. It was
just 3 weeks ago this year :(.
I have yet to even see a .50 BMG shoot even though a friends dad has one and w e w ere going to go shoot it at the range in Alliance but it was raining like crazy the only day
we had a chance :( .
Here is one of the best sources for .50 BMG information that I can find.
Including records and competition information.
http://ww w.fcsa.org
randy803 July 28th, 2006, 10:28 AM

I recently saw a show about the Barret .50 shop and they have designed a new rifle for MILITARY use only in 25mm it looks just like the .50 they make but in 25mm. Its called
the XM109 look here for details --
http://ww w.barrettrifles.com/military.htm
Ekilo July 30th, 2006, 06:31 PM

Not to nit-pick but the AR-50 is not a .50BMG
Browning
Machine
Gun
The AR-50 is chambered for the .50BMG round. This round was developed in around 1910 for the Browning Machine Gun.
This is the M2 .50cal Brow ning Machine Gun or .50BMG for short.
http://en.w ikipedia.org/w iki/M2_machine_gun
Sorry to nit pick but I have experience with the M2 but none for the AR-50.
ShadowMyGeekSpace August 20th, 2006, 09:47 PM

The AR-50 is a .50BMG rifle, because .50BMG is the designation of the actual round it uses. If someone w as talking about the M2, they w ould say the M2, as that is its
designation.
pmercer August 30th, 2006, 06:14 PM

After ensuring every ear is well protected, I squeezed the trigger. The recoil is a large amount, but it came in like an SKS. The total amount of recoil had moved me, and the
gun, back 2 feet away from original firing location.
I fired an AR50 in Feb but didn't find the recoil all that. Certainly no more than my .303 Lee Enfield.
I would have to agree with the blast coming back over your shoulders. As a shooter you don't notice it, but my friend w ho was over my right shoulder ended up on the floor. I
did have to chuckle until it happened to me w hen he shot!!
As a comparison, I fired a .50 Barrett rifle (type escapes me) last year and it seemed a lot louder with slightly more recoil than the AR50.
salbahis January 4th, 2007, 02:29 PM

well perhaps all you guys have some good experience with .50BMG, this is a story from my Philippine Marine Brother
"during my first tour of duty in Mindanao, Philippines back at 2000, during mindanao conflict with the moro rebels, i was assigned to a unit as a Squad Gunner!,i have my first
experience with a .50BMG Rifle to be specific a Barrett M95 Sniper Rifle, during that time the M95 are new to the unit and we are lucky to be one of those w ho used it during an
operation against Muslim Rebel!, during a routine night patrol we come across a bunker w ith 15 to 16 armed muslim rebel, our team leader told our sniper to position accross the
rice field to take out the machine gunner!, the sniper did take out the gunner but the sound of Barrett M95 alerted the nearby camp!, then all hell broke lose, there are only 10
of us!, we are really outnumbered, and w ere pinned down with small arms and RPG, if it wasn't for the airsupport i w ouldn't be here telling this!, the distinct sound of .50 BMG
are it's downside, it so distinct that the enemy can determined if there are marine in the area!, in all the branch of armed forces, the philippine marine are only unit who have
such weapon, i really don't have a good experience with .50 BMG!, i would rather use M21 or M24!"
InfernoMDM January 5th, 2007, 03:47 AM

I lost some interest in the 50 caliber rifles a while back. Looking at ballistics price of rounds etc I decided against buying one a w hile ago. Minus anti material uses the rifle can
barely top other weapons that are easier to handle and cheaper to shoot. They are fun as hell to shoot.
Sausagemit - I lived in Alliance for a few years w hen did you move out?
Jacks Complete January 6th, 2007, 09:09 PM

I tried to pick up a .50 one time. I barely shifted it as it was at least twice the weight I expected. I nearly tipped it over onto the muzzle brake as it tipped on the bipod! Oops!
Not good at a gun show. I managed to get my other hand to it in time, thank god.
I'd love to fire one. It would go through our range backstop entirely.
Mike123 January 10th, 2007, 05:01 AM

About three years ago a friend of mine purchased a .50bmg rifle from me when I managed a gun shop. It was a less expensive, single shot .50 manufactured by Grizzley. We
went out and shot it on some property he had with some other friends, using the bed of his truck as the shooting platform. All the guys there were coffee junkies and someone
had set a styrophome coffee cup on the tailgate about a foot to the right of the muzzle break. When the rifle was fired, it explosively blew the cup into dozens of pieces, w hich
really surprised me. I could see it blasting it several feet away, but to practically disintegrate it w as awe inspiring.
On a side note, shoooting it in the bed of a pickup truck was not really the best idea. Everyone wore ear protection, but it still felt like you w ere inside a large bell as someone
pounded on it with a sledge hammer.
LibertyOrDeath January 25th, 2007, 07:43 AM

I, too, recently fired a .50 BMG rifle for the first time. It was a Serbu BFG-50, which is a bolt action single-shot and a very nice rifle for the price (~$2200). I think it was the 36"
barrel model w ith the overall rifle weight of 32 lbs.
The guy who owned the rifle advised me to pull the stock very firmly into my shoulder pocket with the firing hand and to be careful about eye relief. Then I let 'er rip.
Recoil was no joke, but not what I would call painful. It w asn't like getting punched or anything. Think of having someone put the end of a baseball bat against your shoulder
and then shoving you with it -- that's how it felt to me.
The Barrett M82, w hich is a gas-operated semi-auto of similar weight, has a free recoil energy of about 100 ft-lbs. The Serbu's free recoil energy should be even higher, since it
has no gas system. If anyone wants to compare that to other calibers, there are some handy charts at this link:
Rifles: http://www .chuckhaw ks.com/recoil_table.htm

Shotguns: http://www .chuckhaw ks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm
A word of warning: Shooting a .50 BMG rifle that isn't equipped with a muzzle break is supposed to be very unpleasant and even potentially dangerous. Think of dislocated
shoulders, retinal detachments, etc.
I dunno if sticky bolt is a common phenomenon on .50BMG bolt-gunsI suspect it w as just his gun; the bolt of the gun I shot didn't stick at all.
droz January 31st, 2007, 03:39 PM

I've fired the Barrett M82A1, and the M95.
I must say I w as beyond impressed in the gas recoil system on the M82A1. I was able to fire off shot after shot w ith a minimum dow ntime after the initial recoil. I'm not positive
about the time, but I hit 10, 1000 yard targets, 10 times in just under 40 seconds.
The M95 was comparable to the ArmaLite AR-50, aside from the w orkmanship of the rifle. It was a very well balanced, and the action w as superb. I've owned various .50 BMG
Rifles and if I had to choose between an ArmaLite AR-50, or a Barrett M95 or M99 (if price were not a factor,) I'd most definitely go with the Barrett.
An associate of mine took the muzzle break off his AR-50 and fired it to see w hat it would do. Needless to say, he was hospitalized with a severe dislocation and tearing of
several ligaments. It is not a practice I would ever recommend.
While the M82A1 packs a premium price ($7505-$8010,) I would highly recommend this rifle.
The M95 is a bit more reasonably priced at $5000-5710, and the M99 is betw een $3200 and $4000, although I have personally seen the M99 sell for as low as $1700 in various
gun shops in Wyoming, Colorado, and Texas.
Anformula March 14th, 2008, 03:54 PM

I went through a passionate .50 phase a few years back. I have all the specialized loading equipment, bullets, powder, etc. Vitually none of it is usable with smaller caliber
rounds.
I shot the Lar Grizzly for a while. Nice gun, but I eventually sold it. Not particularly accurate, and what use is a 1500 yard range gun that shoots 2MOA?
Then I had a no holds barred custom actioned .50 built. The gunsmith wound up taking so damn long to build it (well over a year) that my interest kind of wilted. I have had
that completed rifle for over 5 years and I have never even fired it. Pathetic. In my area there is also a "where to go" problem. There is a 1000 yard range nearby, but they
bought into the bullshit "VPC" hysteria and banned .50s.
What people say about the recoil not being bad is really true. The comparison is like getting shoved (50) vs being punched (many smaller calipers). You can feel the energy
from the 50 recoil in your shoulder, but because the rifles are so heavy it is not at all unpleasant. Like a shove. I have a short barreled Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun, that
with 3" magnum shells absolutely spanks me. MUCH worse than the 50.....
Noise/muzzle blast is another issue though. Here, the 50 has to be seen/heard/experienced to be believed. Really nasty blast.....
a3990918 March 14th, 2008, 08:10 PM

I've fired the Barrett M82A1, and the M95.
An associate of mine took the muzzle break off his AR-50 and fired it to see w hat it would do. Needless to say, he was hospitalized with a severe dislocation and tearing of
several ligaments. It is not a practice I would ever recommend.
1. It's Muzzle Brake not Break :p (The Mods can be heavy handed on such mistakes)
2. Not to knock your "Associate" but firing a .50 without a muzzle brake, unless it is securely mounted to some HEAVY object, is just foolish. There are far to many cases of
shoulder injuries, detatched retinas etc for someone to do such a thing, unless they are looking for some Masochistic fun... :rolleyes:
droz March 14th, 2008, 11:24 PM

No one ever said this associate w as smart.
He thought he was billy bad ass since he did time.
And yes, I spelled brake w rong, I can't exactly remember what I was doing at the time but there is no excuse for that. May have been in an airport who knows.
phrankinsteyn March 24th, 2008, 01:45 AM

May be a little off topic but thought you may be interested.
We used a .50 cal (single shot) on the 106 recoilless rifle (M40A1). It was attached to side of 106 and used as a spotting round. You would sight target with .50 cal., if round
struck target you then fired the 106 (nice little round that 106.) No recoil at all, for shooter, as long as you stood at side...............:rolleyes:
Zait March 31st, 2008, 11:14 PM

May be a little off topic but thought you may be interested.
We used a .50 cal (single shot) on the 106 recoilless rifle (M40A1).
Yes but that .50 is smaller than the .50 BMG round.
Here is a picture of the .50 spotter you are referring to compared to the .50 BMG and the Russian equivalent (all three are show n using the metric measurements because I did
this picture for another topic some time ago).
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/4291/127mmammo3px.jpg
a3990918 March 31st, 2008, 11:20 PM

Yes but that .50 is smaller than the .50 BMG round.
I remember some guys experimenting with and chambering some guns for the "Spotter" round, in an effort reduce recoil and w eapon weight, a few years back. I don't think
anything ever came of it though.
phrankinsteyn April 1st, 2008, 06:16 PM

I believe you could use a standard .50 round(s) used for .50 machine guns. A regular .50 (ball) w ould probably throw off accuracy though. So to be on safe side research this
more if you plan on firing the 106. Any old guys out there who can help me out? It has been a long time since I last fired gun and could not find anything in the manual stating
otherwise (on round type). We may have used both types. We had to learn/familiarize ourself's w ith this weapon for defending our base. I was in the infantry platoon not
weapons platoon. When I googled it, Wikipediai stated also it was a different round. I should have said .50 spotting gun , magazine feed and mounted to 106mm recoilless rifle.
What I meant by single shot is it/you fired one round at a time for target acquisition. If round struck you immediately fire 106 round. The 106 was basically used against tanks.
Sorry about that. :confused: I broke out my old field manual, FM 23-82, on the weapon.
Here are some specs.
Weight without magazine: 25 pounds.

Capacity of standard magazine: 10 rounds.
Weight of standard magazine loaded: 4 pounds.
Length of gun: 44 inches.
Length of barrel: 24 inches.
Chamber grooves: 8.
Chamber pressure: 33,400 pounds per square inch.
Maximum range: 3,100 meters (3,400 yards).
Range of tracer element: 1,500 meters (1,645 yards).
Muzzle velocity: 1,700 feet per second.
Hope that info helps some. Thanks for posting photos of the different rounds and the other info.
Added a link for more .50 cal ammo info.

http://ww w.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_50cal.php
Zait April 1st, 2008, 06:38 PM

I believe it was a standard .50 round(s) used for .50 machine guns.
The spotting rifle for the 106mm recoilless gun is the M8C Spotting rifle. You can see one that has been restored here http://www.historicreproductions.com/restore1.htm
The ammunition used for that rifle is hard to come by but here is where you can buy a dummy round for the gun http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?
chrProductSKU=726120&chrSuperSKU=&MC=
As you can see in the link, the cartridge measures approx 4.53" and the standard .50 BMG measures approx. 5.5 inches.
Here is probably the best look at the rifle http://morrow-industries.com/morrow-project-blog/?p=120 and you can see that they too state that the ammunition is 12.7 x 77 mm
(ok, it's a site about a role playing game but they do pretty good research on the items that they use in it).
That's not to say that someone may have replaced the rifle you w ere using w ith some type of modified rifle that fired standard ammo. Of course, it's quite possible that you
were using a sub-cal device that inserted into the 106mm barrel and allowed you to fire a standard .50 BMG cartridge.
Vitalis April 2nd, 2008, 09:28 PM

So from w hat I've read around, the Serbu BFG-50 is a good 50 Cal rifle, especially for the price. I don't have much to spend, so the high-end 50 cals are out of the question, but
is the consensus w ith the 50 cal shooters favorable about the Serbu?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Rifles and Shotguns > M1 Garand and M1 Carbine - Archive File
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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 09:02 PM

Oliver K
A new voice
Posts: 17
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 13, 2001 10:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im from Canada and i was wondering if ne one knows where i can find a M1 garand for sale..i have not seen ne ever for sale...maybe im not looking in the right places...
Also does ne one know if the M2 bolt will fit in the m1 carbine making it selectable fire...or is it the m3 bolt that i need..
THANKS for UR HELP again GUYS!
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<a href="http://WWW.MILARM.COM" target="_blank">WWW.MILARM.COM</a>
no experience with M1 Garand or Carbine.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I Know for a fact that they are legal and not that expensive. Try a GUN SHOW or two.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Oliver K
A new voice
Posts: 17
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks all of you guys...That site about millarms especially...LOTS of CHEAP GOOD GUNS...well rifles...
And thanks about the gun show advice...yeah i used to go..but lately the ones in my area of not been operation..maybe their new sesion did not start or something..i have to
get one of their sheduels..
THANK AGAIN!
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 15, 2001 12:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M1 to M2 conversion requires the bolt, auto sear, selector, and I believe a few holes drilled. I do know for sure it's more than a bolt.
Isotoxin October 3rd, 2004, 05:18 PM

I happen to own an M1 Garand. I got it from my grandfather who passed it on to me when he died. Its in very nice shape.
neo-crossbow June 15th, 2006, 10:47 AM

[QUOTE=Anthony]
Im from Canada and i was wondering if ne one knows where i can find a M1 garand for sale..i have not seen ne ever for sale...maybe im not looking in the right places...
Also does ne one know if the M2 bolt will fit in the m1 carbine making it selectable fire...or is it the m3 bolt that i need..
THANKS for UR HELP again GUYS!

[\QUOTE]
You might also want to try a jig. Its 3 holes....
in the US the parts are now class III so good luck in Canada. There used to be plans floating around for the parts to be made (sorry its been years since I have seen them)
A few different mods that I have come across are ' pinching RC556 bits of mini-14's and fitting the whole trigger pack (a major bottom end job) a modded angle on the stop of
the trigger sear and a new retainer scratch built that held the hammer until the bolt was fully closed.
I reccomend the M1 carbine as it realisticly was the first short stroke gas action, is mild on recoil and can have large cap mags even in restricted states (exc CA) here in aus,
well those days have passed anyway.
People will tell you that m1 ammo won't do the job, its underpowered ect ect. I've seen what it does with a .22 sabot and with a 110 gn JSP to all sorts of animals and I am
glad I wasn't one of them!!!
The brass can also be made from .223 rem if you have good dies and take a little time, i've done that in the past when M1 brass was just puss on the market! Best of luck
Shaker February 27th, 2007, 05:46 PM

The easiest way to get an M1 Garand for a decent price would be through the Civilian Marksmanship program. To be most effective, I would suggest that you enter the Small
Arms Firing School coming up at the end of July at Camp Perry, Ohio.
What this does, is gives you '50 rounds fired in competition' - Which will allow you to start purchasing from the CMP. They have thousands of surplus Garands. If you attend the
Small Arms Firing School, you can purchase up to eight Garands per year.
It would help to know what you are looking at, though. Being surplus rifles, one could be a crowbar and the next could be immaculate. If you want any sort of quality - Bring
your trusty bore and throat gauges with you. Check for matching serial numbers. There will be enough open to the public to make a choice.
Though I am new here, I enjoy you people and the wonderful information that you share. Due to this, I will let you in on some closet information. This year, for the first time in
history, the CMP will be selling M1 Carbines.
They have the largest stockpile of M1 Carbines in the world. The rules will be different than the sales of the Garands, however, because of the expected frenzy. For more
information, feel free to ask me.
InfernoMDM February 28th, 2007, 12:17 PM

Making a M1 into full auto seems almost pointless to me. People have a hard enough time trying to shoot several of the modern, much heavier, machine guns. I can't see this
being very useful. The M1 is better aimed not sprayed.
Sampson1986 August 6th, 2008, 09:16 PM

Making a M1 into full auto seems almost pointless to me. People have a hard enough time trying to shoot several of the modern, much heavier, machine guns. I can't see this
being very useful. The M1 is better aimed not sprayed.
I agree.
At over $25 for a box of .30 Carbine cartridges, you'd have to have to be a rich man to feed an M2.
486 November 18th, 2008, 10:14 PM

...
The brass can also be made from .223 rem if you have good dies and take a little time...
The rim diameter is much smaller on the .30 carbine brass, you could make the rim smaller on a lathe, but you would still have to deal with the wider case web area, which the
resizing die won't size down, I've tried, it's really not worth 10 minutes per case.
...or is it the m3 bolt that i need...
The M-3 carbine was the same thing as the M-2 carbine, only with a night vision scope mount [a big deal when it was brought out].

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Rifles and Shotguns > The Ultimate Sniper Rifle
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ancalagon June 12th, 2003, 06:10 PM

As you all no doubt know, silent firearm technology has been evolving for a very long time, and has taken various shapes in
different countries and eras. The russians came out with an assault rifle which was supposedly able to pierce body armor from
a fair distance, yet fired a subsonic bullet. The MP5SD submachine gun was designed specifically to have one of the best
sound suppressors around. Other guns have been made which use a more silent propulsion than cumbustion powder. Yet each
of these systems has its problems, either at the firing end, the travelling end, the contact end, or a combination.
What if, then, one were to create a rifle that fired a anti-material size (15 to 20 mm) bullet with an explosive tip at subsonic
speeds using an electrical (or another and better form of a) silent propulsion system. After a desired distance, however, the
bullet would turn into a rocket by a time delay ignition and significantly increase the speed and sound of the bullet, yet
because the bullet would be by then be far from the shooter, the sound would make little difference. In fact, one might
deliberately increase the sound of the projectile in a certain fashion as to make guesses on point of origin more difficult. The
bullet/rocket would also have a homing device, so that with a laser the gunner could "paint" the target (using an exceptional
scope) making the gun very accurate, and possibly firing the bullet on a curved track to further prohibit retaliation.
This design would be unwieldy for many purposes. It would be too bulky and possibly too powerful to fire except from the
ground, it would be incredibly efficient at short range, and the cartridges would be quite expensive and large, making both
production and magazine size quite limited. However, for long range "one shot, one kill" firing this design would be (I believe)
ideal. Any thoughts/comments/questions?
Tuatara June 12th, 2003, 06:55 PM

I can't see the point. I've been next to a sniper rifle being blank fired. The noise was so colossal there was no way to tell
where it came from. The echoes from the surrounding hills went on for ages. For a covert sniper I'd have thought supressing
muzzle flash and smoke would be more important.
Also 'long-range', 'sub-sonic', and 'decent accuracy' are somewhat conflicting requirements.
subsonic June 12th, 2003, 07:05 PM

Would be a nice toy, such a Mini Stinger Thingy. But it would be very hard to manufacture for a backyard/garage constructor -
too hard for me. All I have are explosive arrows for my pistol crossbow :D
cutefix June 12th, 2003, 09:46 PM

Anacalgon what you just written , borders in fantasy.
You want to apply missile technology to an ordinary ball ammo or if its modified version with explosive tip plus make it smart.
Hmnn sounds like miniature version of the TOW missile applying ideas of nanotechnology.
In terms of practicality the days of smart small arms ammunition is still in the planning stage .Indeed I read it somewhere in
the net a short time ago about the planning and developments in Oakridge laboratory in this line of work.
Now for anti material ammunition that can penetrate sheet metal the 50 caliber bullet fired from the Barrett or Mcmillan sniper
rifle is already impressive.
The sniper mentality is focused on the best effectivity coupled simplicity.
And the sniper is already happy with the precision made match grade ammunition.
It is not an easy job being a top gun in bush and introduce such complicated ammunition that is not robust in the field
condition.It will complicate the logistics of ammunition supply .
Just remember previously the team of spotter and the sniper usually share the sane caliber of ammunition for the different
rifle they carry in combat;although the sniper carries the match ammo and the spotter the normal ball ammunition. Now in
cases the sniper runs out of his precious ammunition he can relly on his partners stock for his rifle to be still useful.
If you want to make a subsonic ammo for such an anti material sniper rifle which due to the nature of the bullet speed will be
short range;the ordinary grenade launcher can do the same job with devastating effect.Why complicate it?
nbk2000 June 13th, 2003, 02:42 AM

The US military is already working on something very much like this. Large caliber, rocket boosted, laser guided...sure you
didn't see the same show I did and just thought of posting this as something "you" thought up?
At least it isn't as lame as the "Lukes lay on lightsabers" thread some newbie started. :rolleyes:
Seriously, things like railguns, ice bullets, jet-powered missles, laser guided sniper bullets, and other things of the ilk belong
in the head of the dreamer that they came from, and not on The Forum.
Lots of people...exclusively nOObies, as far as I've seen...have posted crap about how they "plan" to build these sorts of
things.
So far, not ONE person has ever posted any PROOF that they've constructed any of these things. And all it does is distract
from real experimenters, and take up megabytes and bandwidth.
If someone...anyone...was to ever post a thread about one of these subjects, and had photographic or, even better, video
proof of having constructed one of these devices to an operational level, then I'd be HIGHLY impressed.
Until then, crap like this belongs in the recycle bin. :( Along with the morons who post it! :mad:
Boob Raider June 13th, 2003, 04:03 AM

These kind of novel ammos come up in movies and tv shows all the time. Ancalagon ..... what you are talking about was
featured in an early 80's "techy" movie. There was some other show in which one has to put in a DNA sample of the target
sucker and fire in any direction and the bullet homes on to the sucker's DNA. This technology is experimental for a couple of
decades atleast and then another couple before you can get your hands on it, just like the good ol Nitrogen Buckyball.
Arthis June 13th, 2003, 06:27 AM

I can see a few problems with this system.
The noise it will make will be heard even at the place you fire, and people are anyway likely to pay attention to you.
The other problems come with physics. How will you make your 'rocket' to fire straight and not at a random direction ? Another
point is you need to put way more powder, as action/reaction principle will make the body take some of the energy: in a
standard rifle, little energy is loss as you don't move a lot when firing. You thus need a heavy body, for the round to be the
fastest possible, then you need really big initial ammunitions, with a lot of powder. Another point is that the body may
explode: there's no cannon tube to hold it.
The solution would then be a rocket fired, with a 'gun' loaded in it... Even if the system is small, it's hard work for a sniper.
Jhonbus June 13th, 2003, 07:18 AM

Having a rocket fire after a time delay will mean that anyone watching can see the rocket ignite. So you draw a line between
where the bullet hits and where the rocket ignited, extrapolate the line a distance that corresponds to the time delay before
ignition, and that's the location of the sniper...

Sorry I wasn't able to reply right away, I was without an internet connection for a while.
"The US military is already working on something very much like this. Large caliber, rocket boosted, laser guided...sure you
didn't see the same show I did and just thought of posting this as something "you" thought up?"
Yes.
"Lukes lay on lightsabers" thread some newbie started"
Touche.
"Lots of people...exclusively nOObies, as far as I've seen...have posted crap about how they "plan" to build these sorts of
things."
I have no intention whatsoever of building this gun, it being illegal for me to where I live at the moment. I would, however,
enjoy writing detailed plans, which I what I tend to do with any illegal project I dream up that I think might have some possible
use.
"For a covert sniper I'd have thought supressing muzzle flash and smoke would be more important."
Actually, I have a bit of experience with military sniping, and not only is the sound and smoke a problem, even the gun shape
is easily recognized even at great distance, and must be broken down.
"You want to apply missile technology to an ordinary ball ammo or if its modified version with explosive tip plus make it
smart."
The point here is NOT to use ordinary ammo, or even modified ammo, but cartridges built from the ground up. The homing
device would be as simple as possible, because the gun would be too impractical for shooting fast moving targets.
"Now for anti material ammunition that can penetrate sheet metal the 50 caliber bullet fired from the Barrett or Mcmillan sniper
rifle is already impressive."
I've used the .50 Barret Sniper rifle, and I do like it. It is not the best there is, but it is certainly one of the most powerful.
However, anti-material rifles can shoot bullets which are able to penetrate 40mm of rolled homogenous steel armour at a
1000 meters, and do fair damage to what is behind.
"If you want to make a subsonic ammo for such an anti material sniper rifle which due to the nature of the bullet speed will be
short range; the ordinary grenade launcher can do the same job with devastating effect.Why complicate it?"
I don't know if you read my post wrong, if I'm not seeing your point, or if I wasn't clear. The gun would fire subsonic bullets
that after a certain would fly off of their own fuel (essentially, a rocket) enabling the subsonic projectile to reach great ranges.
Also, a grenade launcher would do more damage than I want. The explosive tip would be small, just to help the projectile to
penetrate armour or ensure a kill, not to blow-up a vehicle or something similar.
"And all it does is distract from real experimenters, and take up megabytes and bandwidth."
I'm sorry, I must have mistook the purpose of this particular section of the forum. It says, "This section is for discussion about
designing, building, and using improvised weaponry," but I did not know a post had to include all three. I was just putting out
a basic design for possible improvements or, more likely and in apparent actuality, a bunch of people to tell me I'm a moron
who belongs in the recycle bin.
"The noise it will make will be heard even at the place you fire"
The point is I will not use an explosive to fire the projectile, using instead some other system (possibly an electronic one, as
those are in use at present in some firearms).
"How will you make your 'rocket' to fire straight and not at a random direction?"
By placing a homing device on the end of the projectile and using the gun to lase the target.
"Having a rocket fire after a time delay will mean that anyone watching can see the rocket ignite. So you draw a line between
where the bullet hits and where the rocket ignited, extrapolate the line a distance that corresponds to the time delay before
ignition, and that's the location of the sniper..."
That would be true if one were firing at a target from an open field in a systems test. However, in the field certain things like
the speed of the actions (not the gun actions), the angle of sight of the spotters, the possible arc used by the rocket, simple
decoys deployed in synch with and by the rocket ignition, the time necessary to figure out trajectory, etc.
Guess it was a bad idea. At least this little experiment will keep me from posting for a while.
-Ancalagon
nbk2000 June 14th, 2003, 02:27 AM

Actually, I have a bit of experience with military sniping...
Of courrrrsssee...well, now that you've enlightened us ignorant savages, please tell us of your background (or staff only if
you're concerned about your privacy) so that we may verify this claim.
For you see, we do not take kindly to posers here. You may be the next best sniper in the world (behind carlos hathcock), but
claiming that isn't going to get you anywhere with us unless you can prove it to staffs satisfaction.
Until then...annoying poser.
I'm sorry, I must have mistook the purpose of this particular section of the forum. It says, "This section is for discussion about
designing, building, and using improvised weaponry," but I did not know a post had to include all three. I was just putting out
a basic design for possible improvements or, more likely and in apparent actuality, a bunch of people to tell me I'm a moron
who belongs in the recycle bin.
There's nothing to be confused about here, since it says "designing, building, AND using". If it wasnt' all three, then there'd be
an "OR" instead of an "AND".
There's not much point in doing the first two if you'll never do the third. Also, most everything in this section is capable of
being built by a dedicated home experimeter, if he's willing to put in the time/money, such as the GPS guided pulse-jet
missle.
Laser guided micro-missles are at the very edge of possibility for nations with HUGE budgets and advanced weapons labs. To
even suggest you have such capabilities is ludricious and an insult to the rest of us.
Guess it was a bad idea.
Yes, it was.
At least this little experiment will keep me from posting for a while.
An excellent suggestion. I'd make it permanent if I was feeling pissy right now, but my sturmhuhn are doing well in the
conquest of New Zealand, so I'm feeling generous and will allow you to stay. :D
In the future, if you've anything of this ilk to post, do so in the water cooler section. A person can post just about anything
there, and it will not be held against you, like it will be if you post it in the regular sections and it proves to be highly lame
(like the light saber and this one).
Arthis June 14th, 2003, 07:10 AM

I think the idea is not totally lame, but such a device would finally be something like a rocket launcher, a rocket that fire a
bullet. What does the rocket then ?
There's no point using that system as a sniper. But I can see a few uses. If the bullet is powerful enough to get through a
steel protection, the rocket could then use the hole made by the bullet to put some gases in the ennemy tank, for example,
thus gasing pilots, or use a SC...
But then, it would be too big compared to a sniper + a separate rocket launcher. I really think it's useless.
Anthony June 14th, 2003, 04:31 PM

"The point is I will not use an explosive to fire the projectile, using instead some other system (possibly an electronic one, as
those are in use at present in some firearms)."
What you describe would be some kind of railgun. No practical rail gun exists as a personal firearm. Sure you're not confusing
electric ignition instead of primers in ammo?
""How will you make your 'rocket' to fire straight and not at a random direction?"
By placing a homing device on the end of the projectile and using the gun to lase the target."
A homing device isn't magic, it'll need fins or adjustable thrusters or similar to steer the projectile. Although even they would
be useless if the projectile can't fly straight in normal conditions anyway.
It seems that the imagined purpose of this weapon would be to kill an individual, is ammo at $100 000 a shot really worth
that?

I would be simpler if and effective as well if he had thought about a discarding sabot ammunition than the laser guided
miniaturized missiles that is fired from a rifle.
If his purpose is just to penetrate the armor to create a pinhole so that the soldier inside can peep out and see who is the
bastard shooting his truck.:D

"Actually, I have a bit of experience with military sniping...
Of courrrrsssee...well, now that you've enlightened us ignorant savages, please tell us of your background (or staff only if
you're concerned about your privacy) so that we may verify this claim.
For you see, we do not take kindly to posers here. You may be the next best sniper in the world (behind carlos hathcock), but
claiming that isn't going to get you anywhere with us unless you can prove it to staffs satisfaction.
Until then...annoying poser."
I wasn't trying to say that you or any one else was an ignorant savages (apologizes for all who took it that way), I was simply
trying to say that I wasn't a totally ignorant savage. A for my experience...
My main trade is combat and martial arts. My personal experience with the armed forces is limited to the connections I have
inside (no, not top secret angents, I ain't that good). I have never been paid for any service rendered to the military, nor have
I ever been an official consultant. What I have done is simply to work with former or current military personel to help them out
with any particular thing they may have been working on at the time. To be a little more specific, I worked with Jerry Peterson's
instructors in building his post SCARS system, and as many of his students are or were SEALS, I worked on a game they were
designing to teach or practice silent killing techniques (garrot, knife anatomy, sniping, advanced chokes, breaks, etc). The
game was not designed for use by the military, but the two guys I was helping were thinking of possible mercenary work. I
attended a seminar held in Israel by Mr. Levine on his teacher's Krav Maga system, and worked in the U.S. with one of his
students on techniques relating to explosives. I worked with a few members of law enforcement, most notably Jim Wagner
(who I connected with through a reference letter from a friend I have in Los Angelos. That was mainly on what styles or
combination of styles would be best for SWAT versus state police versus local law enforcement. However, I did go on a several
day hunting trip later with some people I met in California, and I got to use several popular sniper rifles, including the barrett
m82a1, US m40, H&K's PSG-1, and a few others. I volunteered in one town I lived in at the local police station to teach self-
defense and self-offense. I also was an organizer of a group some years ago named COMBAT. It was mostly traditional style
weaponry combat, full contact nhb sparring, and training in particular styles. However, due to the high percentage of ex- or
current military folks, I got to know many and so have quite a few friends from there, and I had the chance not only to test
and practice with several handguns and rifles, but also with assault rifles. I also have a friend (Fran Bishop) who still works with
the rangers, and I have had some neat times with him. I also did some work with an ex-marine who I helped as a patient in
alternative medicine physical therapy (qi qong, acupressure, shiatsu, yoga, tai chi, etc) after he left Emerson Hopital psych
ward in Concord, and he was a big gun collector. I'll stop here, unless someone wants more. I don't want to bore you all too
muh.
"To even suggest you have such capabilities is ludricious and an insult to the rest of us."
Once again, when posting this thread I had no intention of actually building the gun, and did not mean to imply that I could or
did or would. I would simply like to draw up plans and theories, bettered by those in the forum.
"It seems that the imagined purpose of this weapon would be to kill an individual, is ammo at $100 000 a shot really worth
that?"
This is true, but some assasinations are worth several million.
"If his purpose is just to penetrate the armor to create a pinhole so that the soldier inside can peep out and see who is the
bastard shooting his truck."
A 20mm penetration round with an explosive tip will make a little more than a pinhole.
-Ancalagon
zaibatsu June 15th, 2003, 01:28 PM

I don't understand the intended purpose of this weapon - long range assassination? Or anti-material? Unless it's a hostage
situation you don't need to worry about overkill I'd have thought. If there is no need to worry about overkill, just make a salvo
of 'dumb' rockets with large warheads and make sure of the kill. Also, I don't understand under what conditions this would be
used under - where couldn't you get close enough to a target to use something like .308/.338/.300 on them. Plus size issues
- why do you think missiles are so expensive and yet carry little explosive? Because of all the complex guidance equipment I'd
guess.

"I don't understand the intended purpose of this weapon - long range assassination? Or anti-material?"
I was thinking about possibly using it for important field assasinations whre the target might be protected and overkill (as
from a high explosive rocket) would be politically unwise. Blowing up a military depot or base is an act of war, but taking out
one person is another matter. I guess you coud say it would be both anti-materiel and for long range assasinations, because
one might find the need for great penetration in order to take out the target.
"Plus size issues - why do you think missiles are so expensive and yet carry little explosive? Because of all the complex
guidance equipment I'd guess."
I think you're right, but most guided missiles are much more complex than necessary for this particular gun. The sniper would
fire in the general direction of the target, continue to lase the target, and the then missile would not really have to turn much
at all to hit the target.

I still think this is an imaginative way for a sniper aspirant ,frustrated by being always unable to hit the target at 800-1000
yards. He will dream how I wish I could have a gun and a corresponding ammo that behaves like a smart bomb and have it
homing on a laser designated target.
But still why not improve your markmanship by exerting more labor in shooting practice than hallucinating on yet impractical
things. True sniping entails lot of markmanship practice that you had to maintain regularly as well as lot of patience and
discipline..
If a would be sniper would rely on gadgetry to hit the target you are not a first class sniper any more but a wimp who is
deviating from the standard shooting practice. You are trying to replace the battle hardened tradition of authentic sniping
techniques with unconventional so called smart guns.(if it already exist).
You imply that you does not care if you spend millions of dollars just to assassinate the target. Do you think your superiors will
agree to that in the field.? A few pieces of match grade ammo coupled with exemplary shooting skills is enough to destroy or
kill a would be quarry in a very cost effective way. Your field commander is not running a James Bond show in combat but just
want things done effectively and simply with the least casualties on his men.
I do not think that a militant government is sensible enough to encourage his military planners and its implementers to
execute a simple target at a prohibitive costs that is equivalent to a round of a Javelin missile that can be done easily with an
ordinary bullet.
A well placed sh ot at long rang e that is fata l, is more than eno ugh. One shot, one kill is the preferred o ption.
If you are using an explosive laden ammunition that leaves a wake on its way(because as you suggest should be rocket
assisted) it is not stealthy anymore as you are compromising the snipers position. Why not use a Bradley instead and had its
25 mm chain gun do the job.It does not matter if you hit the target haphazardly as the explosion (of the HE) will create
extensive damage( which is just as fatal)but can you credit that to your markmanship skill?
If you still go for precision shooting
,why not use the 50 caliber sniping rifle and practice on it? first . It has its own special type of explosive laden bullet .Or you
can employ and armor piercing variation that has possibly tungsyten core in it
However you desire extensive penetration from slow moving bullet. Then you are thinking of applying the HEAT principle to
penetrate and destroy the quarry. But remember the shaped charge penetration is proportional to the ratio of the diameter of
its warhead. How can you apply that to the puny size of a small arms ammunition? You will not get the desired penetrative
power of Munroe effect from that sort of bullet size. A discarding sabot ammunition looks more realistic then but it is best if
fired with sufficient powder charge to eject it at supersonic speed.
Another things is that your supposed bullet is laser seeking; will that guidance system not affect the aerodynamics of the
bullet? You cannot compare performance of the laser guided smart gravity bomb to the trajectory of the bullet ejected from
the gun barrel.
Your idea reminds me of an Arab sniping trainee who was asking his commander why not punch a hole in the target with and
HE round from a recoilless rifle than me labor and crawl in 48 deg C temperature in the field to get a clear shot on the target
with my sniping rifle.
Anyway Such idea was even applied in the Vietnam war to destroy an enemy sniper position.
You worry about overkill but in real life desrtroying a target to the point that what remains are just pieces of its body parts is
not bad as long as nobody gets hurt from among your ranks. Collateral damage is always a possibility if you use weapons that
obliterates it anyway.And that is considered normal.
zaibatsu June 15th, 2003, 11:09 PM

From what little I understand of lazer-guided bombs, they are also dropped/fired in the general direction of the target. So are
air to ground missiles. Also, I don't understand the compatibility of your statements - you have the idea of a highly unique
guided munition, but believe it would be used in a role where deniability may be an issue? They would be able to link the
round to the country which employs it. An political assassination often causes problems, think WW1.
EDIT: Just realised, this a weapon looking for a need, rather than a weapon designed to fill a need. The second option is often
much more sensible. Think market-orientated, rather than product-orientated ;)

I'm going back to the drawing board to fix up a schematic of the actual projectile and possibly the rifle. I'll find somewhere to
post it and put a link here. It may answer some questions and make things easier. WWI was over military build up, alliances,
and nationalism. The assasination was just an excuse. However, I'm talking about "conflicts" in third world countries and the
assasination of guerilla leaders or cartel heads and that sort of thing. I believe the munroe effect could work with the size of
the projectile I'm using, and all attempt to show that in the schematics.
-Ancalagon
cutefix June 16th, 2003, 02:39 AM

Hmnn I remembe r the s ame plot of the Tom C lancy no vel titled Clear and Pre sent Danger where the US g overnment
authorized the use of a fancy cardboard laser guided bomb filled with Cctol. Which unfortunately was immediately linked to the
USA because who on earth would use offensively such a special explosive for obliterating the target in another country.
From that reasoning what ever any attempt to remove somebody by exotic means will usually leave tell tale evidence as who
was the perpetrator of the malicious effort.
In that story the mansion of the cartel head was demolished as well as creating collateral casualties but leaving the irate
leader alive.
If that is what you are thinking in applying your exotic weapon;by assassinating notorious underworld leaders and including
even rogue leaders from anti America countries; to me; such a weapon your think is unwieldy. But as weapon development is
continuous and needs fresh ideas from elswhere, who knows what comes next?
If lately a laser device can shoot down an artillery projectile midair disabling it harmlessly(which is unbelievable previously) why
not give you chance to prove the worth of your idea, and see evidence of your schematics.
Anyway it would be interesting to see the graphic details of your novel weaponry and how does it relate to pragmatic situation
with a sinister purpose in mind.
I also like to see your shaped charged design and see how much of rolled homogenous armor it can penetrate with such a
miniaturized warhead(or bullet head?).

Unfortunately, my computer is in the shop right now, which meant using someone elses computer. This is unfortunate because
the only painting program available was Paint, which is very basic. Oh well. The drawing, therefore, is not drawn to scale, nor
does it look very good at all, but I didn't want to wait a week or more to post the image. I intend to redo the pic as soon as I
get my computer back, but in the meantime bear with me and go with what I have. The pic is at http://www.freewebs.com/
oloringreymantle/cartridge.jpg
Basically, the missile is started like a bullet, using some silent propellent other than the projectile itself. After a specified time/
distance the rocket system starts, the main engines providing great velocity. The secondary engines are controlled by the
guidence system, and perform as thrusters to zero in roughly on the target (which should be near where the projectile is
headed anyway). The outer casing is meant to shatter on impact, spreading shrapnel. If the projectile hits heavy armour, the
casing shrapnel is pretty useless, but it will rip right through lighter protection, causing definite damage to near point of
impact. The head detonates on impact, detonating the smallish amount of HE, which hopefully (using that space that the
munroe effect requires) will enable the penetration round to go through the armor and into the target. The lower part of the
penetration round is meant to shatter while going through any armour, creating penetrative shrapnel. Unfortunately, the
explosion at the front may be enough to not only significantly decrease the velocity of the penetrative round, but also to send
it in the opposite direction. Therefore, not only does the back of the penetration round attach to the four thrusters which
control direction, but also a constant central one. Also, the back HE detonates on impact in an attempt to counter the frontal
explosion. Remember, this is a VERY rough sketch (at the moment) so please... be gentle.
I'm not sure at the moment how to program the guidance systems. I want a very simple system because the projectile should
not have to move around too much. I was thinking that the lasing system on the rifle would broadcast various signals in an
outward direction, constantly updating the guidence system on where the target is. This is also vague, allowing for large
improvement on the part of myself and others.
-Ancalagon
nbk2000 June 18th, 2003, 05:32 PM

Now I remember where I saw this idea from...the "Friday the Thirtenth" TV series.
It was the episode where ryan goes back home to his fathers wedding. Dad used a cursed pipe to kill some dude and steal his
plans for a rifle that used laser guided bullets.
ossassin June 18th, 2003, 10:20 PM

I'm sorry to say that high-powered rifles, which make up 99.99% of sniper rifle cartridges, can not be silenced. The bullets
break the sound barrier, creating a sonic boom. The only way to get rid of this is to use subsonic ammunition, which defeats
the purpose of using a high-powered rifle in the first place. (It is not very powerful.)

"The sniper would fire in the general direction of the target, continue to lase the target "
Does the sniper have to keep the target in sight for the entire duration of the flight of the bullet ??? Why can't he take
multiple shots from an ordinary sniper rifle instead if he really has to be sure ? Thermal imaging/ heat pattern seeking round
would be way better for anti-personal applications. Or even a pheromone detector based round. But in anycase its just not
feasible untill Judge Dredd era comes along.
john_smith June 19th, 2003, 08:24 AM

Why build such a specialized micromissile instead of "accurizing" a normal laser-guided one ? Getting hit with a 3-4", mach 1+
projectile would fuck you up big time, whether it has an explosive warhead or not. And since the launch just needs to be in the
general direction of the target, it could be done remotely from a safe distance from the "sniper".

"Now I remember where I saw this idea from...the "Friday the Thirtenth" TV series."
I thought the Friday series were the Jason movies. I saw one of them, Jason X. It was almost funny, but just to poor...
"I'm sorry to say that high-powered rifles, which make up 99.99% of sniper rifle cartridges, can not be silenced. The bullets
the purpose of using a high-powered rifle in the first place. (It is not very powerful.)"
I addressed this earlier in the thread. First of all, the missile is launched as a subsonic bullet, and the missile kicks in later to
hide point of origin and to increase maximum effective range. Secondly, there are assault weapons built to fire subsonic
ammunition while still laying claim to being highly lethal. Finally, this rifle is not a high-powered rifle. The projectile itself is
high powered.
I thought the quote was ""Even though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I fear No Evil, 'cause I'm the
meanest son of a b#tch in the valley."
Yes, the sniper would have to keep the target for the entire duration of the flight of the bullet (which really isn't that long) due
to the simplicity of the guidance system on the projectile. As of now, the plans include simple guidance systems which respond
to broadcasts from the gun which consist of the whereabouts of the target.
-Ancalagon
Anthony June 20th, 2003, 02:08 PM

That really isn't going to work...
Your picture doesn't show any means of direction control, or stabilising devices.
Secondly, the rocket motors in your picture represent less than 5% of the total size of the round. That really isn't enough to
accelerate a projectile of that size/weight.
Thirdly, your design is 90-95% payload, name one smart weapon that has anywhere near that payload ratio!

"Your picture doesn't show any means of direction control, or stabilising devices"
You'll notice that there are two boxes marked guidance systems. They would control the output of the secondary rockets,
allowing for directional change by way of thrusts.
"Secondly, the rocket motors in your picture represent less than 5% of the total size of the round. That really isn't enough to
accelerate a projectile of that size/weight."
You're right. However, I did say that the picture is not to scale (yet). I am still trying to fix my main computer, and without it I
cannot make anything but the crudest of drawings.
"Thirdly, your design is 90-95% payload, name one smart weapon that has anywhere near that payload ratio!"
But this cartridge isn't like most smart weapons, because it is not designed to do much in the way of directional changes, nor
is the guidance system very advanced. Therefore, the engines and other systems that a guided missile would have are not
needed.
-Ancalagon
nbk2000 June 21st, 2003, 02:53 AM

Ancalagon, you're #14 on the list posted at http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=38275#post38275
ancalagon June 21st, 2003, 12:30 PM

I get the hint, so I'll shut up on this. I thought you would just lock the thread, but apparently you were kind enough (and I'm
not being sarcastic here) to let me close on my own, and leave with some (possibly undeserved) dignity, and I thank you for
that. So I'll put an end to any replies on this thread, and anyone who wishes to say anything more is free to email me. Thanks
for the help and advice from all.
-Ancalagon

Ancalagon ...... DONOT make fun of a Biblical Quotation again :mad: . If you wan't to get back at me come up with a smart
idea and not by mocking a biblical quote.

I wasn't trying to get back at you or insult you with the quote. I missed church once when I was young, because I was sick. My
father made me memorize that psalm instead, and said he would test me when my family returned. So I memorized it, and
recited it to my father after he got back, and I was forgiven for missing church. After a brief lecture, my father got up to leave,
but right before he walked out of the room, he told me that joke. I found it amusing, although it is poking fun at my religion.
I frimly believe that if one feels comfortable telling a joke that might offend someone (a polish joke, a french joke, a blonde
joke, a psycho joke, et cetera) then one must be able to take light of any subject. I believe that one most hold the same
policy across the board, otherwise it is almost saying, "it is okay to make fun of such and such a person, but not this type of
person, and I find that discriminating. However, I did not mean to offend you and I apologize.
-Ancalagon

The sniper technology remains the same practically the same .
If you will see the different high powered anti-material guns that is popular worldwide. The principles remains the same. High
velocity bullet fired from a good rifle.
Therefore any futuristic ideas will remain in the drawing board for the time being.
Although it may offer radical possibilities.
For new idea look at the latest model of the Steyr Anti material rifle:
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm
You can see also different anti material rifles used by many countries.
zaibatsu July 1st, 2003, 10:07 AM

ancalagon,
I was reading a book entitled "RAPID FIRE - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their
Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces" by Anthony G Williams, and they had some things in their *similar* to what you
were talking about. Something you may wish to look into are the "Extended Range Guided Munition" which seem to be pretty
similar to what you are talking about.
If you quit with the fly-by-wire lazer guidance, a feasible idea would be to combine a lazer rangefinder with a GPS system to
give you the coordinates of a person. Then you could fire your projectile high into the air, and then have it come gliding down
on fins to the GPS coords. However, I guess that wouldn't help too much if they were moving.
Or, an alternative system would be to use small explosive charges to guide the projectile, doing away with fins. But, this again
would be pretty complex. Still, doing a google search (http://www.google.co.uk/search?
q=extended+range+guided+munition&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=) should bring up something
interesting.
stickfigure July 10th, 2003, 09:50 AM

I thought I would make a couple small comments on this subject. First it in nearly impossible to "silence" a sniper rifle and if
your are able to suppress the blast you still have to sonic boom. With a high powered rifle the boom is actually an advantage
as it causes an echo that appears to come from the opposite direction and the enemy will turn around and have there backs to
you as you take your next shot. Also if your are 2,000 yds away with a suppressed .50 cal. they will have to work really hard to
get to you. Second the US Air Force is working and a weapon that would be able to reach any target in the world within two-
hours launched within the US. That doesn't sound like much but that two hours at the longest ranges. And considering it takes
a B-1, our fastest bomber at least 13 hours to make it halfway around the planet, not considering refuel time this is
remarkable. This is a munition that is basically an "ultimate" sniper weapon and will also be nuke capable. It will be able to
loiter over a target at high altitude and for up to 24 hours and strike when to target presents itself.
yt2095 July 10th, 2003, 11:32 AM

perhaps using smokeless powder a subsonic projectile (fragmentation, and poison loaded) to kill your victim AFTER you`de set
up a remote charge at an angle (opposite`s too obvious for sound ricochet) that sounded like a gun and emited a little smoke
(too much would be obvious also). the remote trigger could be a simple microswitch and wire on or near your grip or trigger
finger that goes to a radio device sitting next to you on your roof or hill or whatever. these charges could be multi triggerable
for more than one assasination, and cheap as chips to make!
you could even have recoil or sound sensitive or break-beam detector at your muzzel. You fire from the East, peoples eyes will
look to the north or south, when one or 2 people start looking that way, the sheeple will always follow! and agree with each
other and fabricate their own stories about how they even saw the glint of the lens or barrel (when they were probably picking
their noses) sheeples memories in a crowd and shocking situations are EASILY influenced by others, exploitably! :)
and the whole lot would would probably cost you about 40 ($60) at Radio Shack to make. :D
compound June 2nd, 2004, 09:30 AM

if any one has seen the MP5SD without the silencer then you would first notice that it has a barrel just larger than say a berreta
92f. This means that the silencer is about 4-5 times the size of the barrel. This solution would just not be practical for a sniper
rifle unlsess your like 30ft tall. If you want to assasinate someone do this. Use a sniper rifle with a flass suppresser and use
smokeless powder rounds. Fire your shoot and kill the dude or whatever then detonate a couple of loud explosions in
someplace were your not. If you want you could also remotly set off 1 smoke grenade in the opposite direction to you. Any
enemy/feds who see this will think you are deploying a smoke screen to get away and will assume you are were the smoke
screen is. By the time they realise your smart and there dumd the target will be daed and you will be thousands of miles away.
:D
CommonScientist August 20th, 2004, 04:07 PM

I designed a odd round for long-range chuck hunting one day. It was composed of the Barrett M82A1 sniper rifle system, and
a .25 cal sabot accellerator round for the .50. Its FPS would be ungodly I would imagine, so the only problem being wind, which
when accounted for via scope and a brain, would make one bad day for the target.
Yes, a 30' gun could be a possible problem ;-), unless you were stationed in the Alps, and had a cavern hidaway, where you
fire from, but it would still be useless, as silencers can slow down the projectile.
atr August 20th, 2004, 10:13 PM

I shoot , F , class and although i'm not or ever have been a sniper i get to meet a lot of them . One of the biggest worries for
modern snipers is technology . I'm not talking cop swat marksman but battlefield military snipers . The modern laser
rangefinder is great because the opposition doesn't have the technology to pick up a laser and track it back to the source . Al
Quida nor the Taliban or the Iraqis' have it , but we do and so do the Russians and Chinese . If the day comes that we have
to go up against the Chins or Ruskies a laser rangefinder is going to give the sniper teams position away . As long as we're
shooting third world folks we won't have to worry about that for awhile but some of the technology is finding it's way to the mud
huts . Sniper teams use calculators to plot trajectory and dope wind but any and every electronic device has seepage and
transmits a signal . Right now in Canada the military are flying with seepage detectors looking for and finding people with
pirate television satallite signals systems . A t.v. satallite system is a reciever but they seep and also transmit and the
transmission can be tracked as easily as a cellphone signal . Al Quida tried useing cellphones and f.m. radios and as soon as
they turned them on they were greeted by a cruise missle . Third world folks don't have the technology to pick up the seepage
from a sniper teams calculator but we do , and so do the Chins and Ruskies . A smuggler was caught on the Turkey/Iraq
border a few months ago with a dozen third generation infrared scopes . Ancient technology manufactured in Russia sold in the
west by Bushnel . Thermal imaging devices are very dangerous to a sniper team in the hands of the enemy and now almost
anyone can afford one . My point is that if anyone is going to design a new sniper system or munitions enemy technology has
to be taken into account and we must look at the most advanced enemy technology so we would have to build the system by
reverse engineering from the enemy technology perspective . As long as we're shooting mud hut folks we're o.k. , so far but in
sniping signature is everything whether it's your thermal image , laser image or the signature of your munition or electronic
leakage or accoustic . Snipers , for the most part don't shoot tracers for the same reason that they won't shoot rocket
propelled munitions . With unmanned drones and satallites useing thermal , optical and electronic detectors able to call upon
a cruise missle at a seconds notice and laze the target for the missle battlefield snipers are almost obselete . Not quite , but
almost . No sniper needs anything that will ad to his signature but needs everything to defeat the enemies ability to read his
signature .
Bugger August 20th, 2004, 10:37 PM

"Now I remember where I saw this idea from...the "Friday the Thirtenth" TV series."
I thought the Friday series were the Jason movies. I saw one of them, Jason X. It was almost funny, but just to poor...
"I'm sorry to say that high-powered rifles, which make up 99.99% of sniper rifle cartridges, can not be silenced. The bullets
the purpose of using a high-powered rifle in the first place. (It is not very powerful.)"
I addressed this earlier in the thread. First of all, the missile is launched as a subsonic bullet, and the missile kicks in later to
hide point of origin and to increase maximum effective range. Secondly, there are assault weapons built to fire subsonic
ammunition while still laying claim to being highly lethal. Finally, this rifle is not a high-powered rifle. The projectile itself is
high powered.
I thought the quote was ""Even though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I fear No Evil, 'cause I'm the
meanest son of a b#tch in the valley."
Yes, the sniper would have to keep the target for the entire duration of the flight of the bullet (which really isn't that long) due
to the simplicity of the guidance system on the projectile. As of now, the plans include simple guidance systems which respond
to broadcasts from the gun which consist of the whereabouts of the target.
-Ancalagon
It would take very sophisticated micro-miniaturization of electronics for an automatic target guidance device to be built into a
bullet capable of being fired by an ordinary portable rifle, as distinct from a shoulder-mounted grenade launcher which is much
heavier and bulkier. As regards the disadvantage of subsonic bullets having to be used instead of supersonic bullets because
of the sonic boom caused by breaking the sound barrier, with resulting loss of penetrating power by the subsonic bullet, this
could be compensated for by having bullets made with explosive charges inside them (which are presently only made as
artillery shells and for heavy-caliber anti-aircraft guns of at least about 25mm size), and/or made of a heavier and harder
ballistic material like depleted uranium.
Bugger.
raptor1956 August 24th, 2004, 06:55 PM

have enjoyed both sides of this thread and thought I'd add my 20 cents worth. I have a little experience in long range
shooting in both military and hunting formats. (to be fair my military experiences were with 4.5" naval guns and ikara
missiles!) However my best mate is an ex aussie SAS sniper sniper instructor, and qualified marksman, with 25 years in the
aussie army to back it all up. As I understand it, the idea behind sniping is to use a two man team to produce a strategic
result out of all proportion to their numbers. The main requirements for a sniper are stealth, concealment, and
manouverability, and while "smart" rocket-assisted ammo may help with range etc. the logistics of using such rounds would
effectively negate these much of the time, and the reliability factor would add too much unpredictability to the kill ratios. On
the other side however, there is nothing wrong with someone thinking these things up. If it wasn't for people theorising the
impossible or impractical, weapons design would still be at the stage where we threw rocks at each other.
Jacks Complete August 24th, 2004, 07:02 PM

I disagree in part. Since all minature electronic systems are very sophisticated, there is no big step forward. Especially when
you consider that the "code" required for this project is four lines long, or eight if you want variable/proportional feedback,
rather than "on/off". Give me ten million or a wafer fab plant and I could have a friend design it, and I could start production.
You don't even need a new wafer plant.
As for the power/KE problem, there really isn't one. Yes, you need to stay subsonic, so you simply have the projectile hit them
in the head or throat, and that's that, even with a fairly small projectile.
The laser tracking systems/B2 bombs/cruise missiles, etc. are mostly how it is done today, but consider that the sniper
weapon of choice is actually a laser designator - takes out a tank, takes out a house, takes out a person (and his mates)
I would consider a guided countermeasure to this to be something that the West would build in a second if the enemy were
using these toys against us. As was pointed out above, there isn't anyone who has this level of tech ranged against us. I have
more hi-tech in my house than the Taliban ever had! (I could probably have slowed down the invading US army more, too, but
there you go - so could anyone sane, but you could argue that no-one sane would go up against the US!)
markgollum August 24th, 2004, 10:08 PM

In regards to the idea that silencing a high-powerd rifle is pointless, I disagree.
A rifle that is high powered can, of course, fire bullets at a very high velocity or it can fire much heavier bullets at a low velocity.
For example, a .338-06 (a high powered rifle) can fire a 160 Gr (grain) bullet at 2890 fps or it can fire a 250 Gr bullet 2214 fps
(still way above the speed of sound). And it could, with reduced loads and very heavy bullets (you can get 300Gr .338 cal
bullets) be made to fire them just below the speed of sound. What I am trying to say is that a 300Gr bullet traveling at 950fps
while it may not shoot as flat, or have as much destructive capability as a lighter fast bullet, but will be silent and still be very
effective out to about 350yards with a competent marksman, and proper equipment.
tdog49 August 25th, 2004, 01:13 AM

What Mark says is true, after all this is the whole point behind the Whisper family of cartridges pioneered by J.D. Jones at :
'www.sskindustries.com/'
really impressive stuff

for example, the 510 whisper (one of the big loads) has a 750 gr projectile at 1050 fps and is sub moa at 600 yds.....
no matter how you add that up, it will ruin your day if your unlucky enough to catch it.....
curious sniper November 13th, 2006, 10:01 AM

if i want to make my .22mag rifle sound even quieter when out hunting i just stick a 1.25L coke bottle over the muzzle, it acts
like a pretty good "poor mans" silencer
zaibatsu November 13th, 2006, 04:16 PM

And it would be even quieter inserted into your rectum while the trigger is pulled. You couldn't be more original and come out
with the other oft-mentioned suppressor theory of a potato on the end of the barrel?
nbk2000 November 13th, 2006, 07:56 PM

if i want to make my .22mag rifle sound even quieter when out hunting i just stick a 1.25L coke bottle over the muzzle, it acts
like a pretty good "poor mans" silencer_
Where the underlining is, is where you failed to use proper grammar.
Such as:
Failure to capitalize the beginning of a sentence.

Failure to capitalize the letter I when using it in reference to oneself.
Failing to end a sentence with a punctuation mark, such as a period.
Improve on these failures in the future. :)
Oh, and you forgot to mention Thermite! ;)
Docca November 14th, 2006, 03:57 AM

if i want to...
What, no feeding frenzy?
I/i, necromancy (or digging up a 2 year old topic with nothing useful to add, take your pick), PMJB, etc.
Must be "kinder + gentler" week. I don't think it will last.
Cobalt.45 November 14th, 2006, 06:00 PM

And it would be even quieter inserted into your rectum while the trigger is pulled.
I'm not post whoring here, but I just had to say that this struck me as being funny as hell.
Thanks for the laugh!
ap_gruffud November 15th, 2006, 12:40 AM

well then curious sniper, did you know that puting a coke bottle over your muzzle is the fastest way to fuck your barrel? I
suggest you go and check your poor ".22mag" for a bulge.
ShadowMyGeekSpace November 23rd, 2006, 01:01 AM

There's no way that a 2 liter coke bottle can increase barrel/chmaber pressure beyond the proofing of a firearm. You're talking
about very thin plastic, and it's most likely not even air tight.
Jacks Complete November 24th, 2006, 10:10 AM

You will increase the back-pressure, and on a .22 s/a you will find all sorts of weird things happening, with the powder blowing
back out the mech, burning your hands, getting in your eyes, etc. as well as whacking the bolt back against the stop far harder
than normal. Use something like a lever action or a bolt action, and doing the same trick, can, sometimes, cause a barrel
bulge, though this is unlikely (except with a shotgun!) What you will likely get is increased back pressure, which makes the
bolt hard to work.
Going back to the original post start, I see the idea being a good one, but it's still years off. I'd love to design and build one,
but I doubt I would get the permissions. The downside is that the countermeasures to it would be really, really simple to
implement. You could adapt the standard anti-laser radar speed trap systems to protect you, probably without any work at all,
just a power lead. It would both warn of the laser ranging, and jam it (perhaps) but it would easily upset the guidance laser.
Even with a complex system, it would overwhelm the sensor, and a simple system would be pulled off line as it tried to turn
towards the secondary source.
Some work would be required to make this system work, but I think I could do it. Certainly in a shotgun format, where the
projectile doesn't spin much, and there is a lot more space and mass to play with. Keep it fairly simple, and heavy, and sub-
sonic. I'd go for a 18.5mm projectile (12 bore) at first, and work from there.
Cobalt.45 November 24th, 2006, 09:16 PM

No way, no how will a 2 liter bottle bulge the barrel of a .22, unless it's heat treat is altered/ not in spec. Even then, it's very
doubtful.
That being said, it's a bone head move to ever obstruct the barrel of a gun with anything.
Anyone see that Mythboner's episode where they try to bulge the barrel of a rifle with a "finger"?
Docca November 24th, 2006, 10:38 PM
A. No way, no how will a 2 liter bottle bulge the barrel of a .22.
B. That being said, it's a bone head move to ever obstruct...
C. Anyone see that Mythboner's episode...
A. I've got to agree here. The only way you could cause a bulge would be to roll up a piece of the bottle and obstruct the
barrel. Given the earlier context, it's a kewlish idea, but would probably reduce the sound of the shot. If you want a quiet legal
.22 use standard velocity ammo.
B. Agreed.
C. No, but I can assure you that if you obstruct the end (finger or otherwise) of a significant caliber rifle you'll be sorry. I've got
pictures, but if you've ever seen Bugs stick his finger in the end of Elmer's gun - It looks just like that...
Formerly a rifle -
'http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/docca357/1.jpg'
Formerly an obstruction -
'http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/docca357/2.jpg'
ShadowMyGeekSpace November 25th, 2006, 08:55 AM

Baffling a weapon with a 2 liter bottle won't do jack, even in higher caliburs. Infact, the pressure rating for a barrel rises
accordingly with calibur, so theres no fucking WAY it would do it. As for a barrel obstruction, it will only cause a kaboom if
1) The breech blows from over pressure
2) There's a sudden increase in pressure
and with #2, any milspec firearm will usually perform well with a partial obstruction. The MilSpec H&K USP (dubbed the mk23
for those that care), .45ACP pistol was given a full obstruction during testing. That's right, they field stripped the weapon,
jammed a .45 round in the barrel, and then fired a round through the barrel. Minus a slight bulge, the barrel showed little
damage. The round also hit the target, and held tight groups during subsequent firing of the weapon.
Uraijit December 4th, 2006, 02:25 AM

It apears that the old plans have been lost. I hacked into ancalagon's computer and retrieved his completed plans. They're
actually better than I had originally expected. And now that his computer is "out of the shop". He's using Photoshop CS2.
Impressive!
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r72/Uraijit/Untitled-1copy.jpg
Docca December 4th, 2006, 02:33 AM

I hope NBK got the kill cam working...
At least I know one of the next names to be fed to the beast.
Uraijit December 4th, 2006, 06:37 AM

If you're talking about me, I doubt it. I think NBK has enough sense to get a joke when he sees it. Everybody already knew
this thread was crap. And like I said, he's got some comon sense, and a good sense of humor. And it would apear he's down
for some good ol' fashioned ridicule of morons every now and again. Good try though. Better luck next time ;)
nbk2000 December 4th, 2006, 01:02 PM

I liked the Chuck Norris reference! :D
UTFgoogleSE to find 'The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny'. ;)
Cobalt.45 December 4th, 2006, 04:01 PM

If that's a "who":) and not a "what":confused: , that's standing behind the AK "Witness Suppressor", "they" sure are excited
about the project, it would appear!:o
Pretty damn funny.:D
prespec April 2nd, 2007, 03:06 AM

Newbie here, but with more than a little experience building and shooting match rifles.
Some of the ideas are not quite as implausable as they sound. The Gyro-jet pistol was an old design from the 60's, if I recall
correctly, and shot a rocket assisted projectile, but with no useful accuracy.
Base-bleed propellant is also used in some artillery shells to overcome base-drag, thus enhancing range.
BTW...Anyone wishing to subjugate New Zealand will find many accomplished riflemen .
prespec May 11th, 2007, 04:46 AM

well then curious sniper, did you know that puting a coke bottle over your muzzle is the fastest way to fuck your barrel? I
suggest you go and check your poor ".22mag" for a bulge.
Absolute rubbish!
The exterior volume will allow the bullet to escape well before retarding it's progress up the barrel. Bore volume, at any time ,
is less than a coke bottle and the barrel is substantially stronger.
The coke bottle would have all the utility of a chocolate teapot as a supressor too, but no harm would be done.
Think about it!!
Bugger May 15th, 2007, 10:00 AM

(cut) BTW...Anyone wishing to subjugate New Zealand will find many accomplished riflemen .
Oh yes, - wild ducks, goats, pigs (not the kind that go around framing people on false charges), deer, rabbits, opossums,
stoats, and wildcats are hunted here for sport and pest control; and rifles are standard equipment on cattle and sheep farms
for home kills and for protection against wild dogs.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Rifles and Shotguns > What is the best surplus sniper rifle?
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ke6ziu May 16th, 2006, 01:16 PM

I don't know about anyone here, but I think that the best military surplus rifle for sniping is the Mauser. Oh, the Mosin Nagant
is pretty good, but that recoil after awhile will kick you in the ass! An 8mm Mauser can be used to reach out and touch a target
up to 1000 yds, and if you're patient enough, you can even mount a POSP scope off an SVD onto your Mauser, making it even
deadlier. Besides, the rifle is robust, and even accurate! There are several variants out there, but the best ones are the
German variants, the Czech variants, the Yugo variants, the Belgian variants, and the Spanish variants. A rather unique variant
of the Mauser was a transitional rifle that Spanish had; I think it was called the F7. It mated a barrel assembly, and a sight
assembly from the CETME to a Mauser. It gave recruits the ability to shoot the same round used in the CETME, and gave them
the opportunity to get used to diopter sights. Neat, eh?
aikon May 16th, 2006, 02:24 PM

The search button is your friend.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/tools-techniques-plans/1771-best-bolt-action-rifle.html
ozboy June 11th, 2006, 07:23 AM

The Australian army uses the Parker-Hale M82 in .308 based on mauser-type action, with rotating bolt with 3 lugs, that locks
into the receiver, and with non-rotating claw extracor. Heavy barrel is cold hammer-forged and free floated inside the stock.
Trigger is fully ajustable for weight and length of pull. This rifle sholud be worth look at.
neo-crossbow June 15th, 2006, 10:06 AM

The Australian army uses the Parker-Hale M82 in .308 based on mauser-type action, with rotating bolt with 3 lugs, that locks
into the receiver, and with non-rotating claw extracor. Heavy barrel is cold hammer-forged and free floated inside the stock.
Trigger is fully ajustable for weight and length of pull. This rifle sholud be worth look at.
Not anymore buddy, Now its designated the "SR98" its an accuracy international .308 on an AICS synthetic stock.
I'd lean you towards purchasing a YUGO 8mm mauser off the shelf, in Australia you would want to go with a clean barrel .303
and fit B-Square mounts and probably a 8 X 40 (or higher magnitude or larger lense)
oxbeast June 15th, 2006, 03:47 PM

Hopefully you can still obtain surpluss, re-barrelled Mauser K-98s in .308.
The previous ones I worked on were Israeli on Czech Brno Mauser actions.
With a bit of woodwork and drilling for scope mounts they made nice sporters. Never had any head-spacing problems on those
but it's still something I would recomend having checked. Also if you can get hold of a fired casing, check for blow-by on the
case neck.
Gollum June 15th, 2006, 09:31 PM

Marstar Canada sells Norinco clones of the M14 which served as the basis of the M21 sniper system for around 350$ US, 399$
CDN.
In fact I believe marstar sells a sniping kit for that particular rifle. You won't be able to buy it in the US though due to Chinese
gun import bans. A shame really. I own several norinco pistols (Mostly Tokarevs) and they are fucking fantastic, though they
lack the polish of the real thing, they are just as, if not MORE functional, than the real thing.
They also sell a number of antique mausers as well as czech stuff. I'm not too interested in the WW2 rifles so can't vouch for
their quality, but marstar is a good outfit so you can't really go wrong.
Jacks Complete June 16th, 2006, 06:41 PM

Pretty much any surplus military rifle is going to be a good buy, and you can be sure that it was tested plenty for the uses it
was seen to be for.
Long bolt-action rifles were perfect for the trench warfare of WWI and WWII, the sub-machineguns were great for urban
fighting in WWII and after. Pretty much all of the designs are plenty lethal, even against lightly armoured targets at long
distances.
irish June 20th, 2006, 06:01 PM

So far as long range accuracy goes in surplus rifles you can't go past 98k and Swedish Mausers in 8mm and 6.5mm, main
thing to look for is an OK barrel with a good crown and last few inches in the bore.
I have a model 98K Mauser in 8mmJS and while the barrel has seen a lot of use it is still a very good shooter out to several
hundred meters, have not yet shot it over 1000 but will have a go when the chance arises. Mine cost AU$299 with Mil-surp
ammo at AU$39 for 100 rounds, cheap ammo= more practice.
Bert June 21st, 2006, 11:56 AM

The Norinco M1A copies have had a bad reputation for poor steel in the receivers, according to gunsmiths I've asked they can
actually STRETCH in use eventualy having headspace problems. This is in the US, so it's been a while since those guns were
importable, maybe they're better now?
Can't go wrong with a 98 Mauser in good shape. Ammo is ridiculously cheap and quite accurate.
Gollum June 22nd, 2006, 01:03 AM

That reputation was actually a result of the competitor starting rumors about the metal used in the gun.. It's a bunch of
garbage. It's the same kind of rumor that the CZ-52 is better than the original Tokarev 33. The Tokarev is stronger than the
CZ52 by far, has been proven many times over but you still see people blabbing on the net that the 52 is the stronger gun.
The M14S from norinco is a good gun and while it's no match rifle, it certainly won't fall apart like internet rumors make it out
to do. The bolts are not as good as they should be, but can be replaced for pretty cheap at a gunsmith's.
As a bit of a slap in the face to springfield, the norinco m14s receivers are actually far better than the american version. The
springfield armory receivers are made from cast steel, not forged. You'll see Springfield M1A's cracking long before you see a
norinco stretching.
neo-crossbow June 22nd, 2006, 10:22 AM

You'll see Springfield M1A's cracking long before you see a norinco stretching.
Well said, these days there are some pretty good Chinese fire-arms.
oxbeast June 26th, 2006, 03:47 AM

Chinese firearms are like Chinese machine tools. Some are absolutely great value for money while others are a bit rough.
Norinco use d to produce (Possibly still do, I v e b e e n o u t of the firearm s g ame for some years) an excellent clone of the Colt
1911. All the parts perfectly interchanged with Colt parts and the aftermarket accessories for Colts. The only problem, with the
examples I saw in the 90s, was that the barrel was a bit soft and the barrel lugs would deform.
Generally people would get a nice .45 ACP for the price of the Norinco, a decent aftermarket barrel and linkage, a set of
aftermarket grips and some adjustable sights.
All of the above still came out quite a bit cheaper than a used Colt 1911.
Back on the subject of rifles. Norinco also made some bolt-action K98 clones. The stocks were absolutely horrific (Wood
painted red ) but the b arrel was fine and the action could b e made quite slick with some jeweller s g rinding paste. These rifles
used to be very cheap and actually shot pretty straight for the price.
Gollum July 1st, 2006, 10:17 PM

I love those ugly red wood stocks. It's a hobby of mine to reshape them with a wood plane then stain them a nice light brown
color and finally a thin varnish to protect. I have some very beautiful air and real rifles that came to me looking ugly as sin but
look fantastic now. Ugly stocks usually have a lot of extra wood to work with as well so you can customize your rifle stock to
your own shooting style.
AZDesertRat July 10th, 2006, 06:07 PM

you can't go wrong with a good ole M44 Mosin. remove the bayonet throw on a good rubber butt pad and pick up a couple
boxes of cheap ammo. The rifles are fun to shoot, fairly accurate, and you can easily lighten the trigger pull of the gun. I am
not much into the so call "scout" rifles, but I did use the idea of putting on a long eye relief scope on mine and it works great
for long or shot shots at Javalina here in the west, where you want to shoot quick before the buggers run off into the creosote
bush or sneak up on you and take off your toes at the ankle.:D
cletus July 22nd, 2006, 01:51 AM

The model 96 SWEDISH Mauser is the only logical choice,all service rifles had to shoot 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards before
they were issued.The fact that Sweden never fought in any wars while this was the issue weapon means that nearly all of them
are in pristine condition.Leupold makes an excellent scope mount avoid the mount from B-Suare it is absolute junk.My rifle will
outshoot any production Remington,Savage,Browning etc.The ballistics are amazing 6.5x55mm hands down kicks ass.
All this for under $200 dollars.
Tectonic July 25th, 2006, 04:36 PM

Hmm.. Mosin-Nagant. They're cheap, reliable, and legendary. Simo Haya (I believe), a Finnish sniper, bagged over 500
Russians with it, with only Iron Sights.
Cobalt.45 July 26th, 2006, 04:23 PM

My choice of a surplus sniper would be a Springfield Model 1903A4.
You gotta like the .30-06; Remington alone has 19 different loads for it, ranging from 55 gr (4080 fps) to 220 gr (2410 fps).
Too bad it was deemed too long, among other considerations, to make it into the .308- era weapons.
As far a military rounds go, in it's day I know of nothing else that surpasses it for flatness of trajectory out to 500 yards, or
energy delivered. But if there is, I hope someone will say.
ShadowMyGeekSpace July 26th, 2006, 07:16 PM

My rifle will outshoot any production Remington,Savage,Browning etc.The ballistics are amazing 6.5x55mm hands down kicks
ass.
All this for under $200 dollars.
I've shot < .25 moa groups through a fresh out of the box virgin savage 10fp-le2 w/ federal 168 grain match ammo. Their
"accutrigger" rules, and so does having a heavy, free floating barrel.
Now, I'm not doubting the accuracy of the 96, but its not going to match a savage that's been properly broken in and cared
for.
oxbeast July 28th, 2006, 09:31 AM

A few people have mentioned the Nagant. It would appear that they do make a very cost effective Scout Rifle.
Below are two articles detailing the construction of Nagant Scout Rifles.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/mosinscoutrifle/index.asp
http://home.earthlink.net/~hwsportsman/CheapScout.html
The first one gives an estimated $500 cost for the project as opposed to the $2500 that a Steyr Scout would cost.
abouali July 28th, 2006, 02:06 PM

CheyTac Long Range Rifle System - Intervention sniper rifle (USA
Caliber: .408 CheyTac

Operation: manually operated rotating bolt action
Barrel: 762 mm (30")
Weight: 12.3 kg
Length: 1400 mm (stock retracted), 1220 mm (stock collapsed)
Feed Mechanism: 5 rounds detachable box magazine
The entire idea behind the CheyTac LRRS (Long Range Rifle System) is to provide long range soft target interdiction (read:
anti-personnel sniper) rifle package, with maximum effective range, but relatively compact and light. To achieve this goal, the
professor John D. Taylor designed the .408 CheyTac cartridge. Being mid-way in size between the mighty .50BMG and already
established long-range favorite .338Lapua, the .408 features a streamlined bullet with advanced patented design. This design
allows the standard 419 grain (27.15 gram) bullet to retain its supersonic velocity at the ranges beyond 2000 meters (2200
yards). At the ranges beyond 700 meters the .408 bullet has more energy than the standard .50BMG ball bullet. The .408
cartridge also is lighter than .50BMG cartridge by about 1/3, and generates less recoil.
The original CheyTac Intervention M100 rifle is based on the Windrunner .50 caliber takedown rifle from EDM Arms. Current
Intervention M200 sniper rifles still are based on Windrunner design, but with several modifications. The Long Range Rifle
System also includes CheyTac tactical computer (commercial PDA with CheyTac ballistic software), Nightforce NXS 5.5-22X
scope, and Kestrel 4000 wind/temperature/atmospheric pressure sensors, linked to the PDA. The Tactical Computer with
sensors and internal ballistic database provides all necessary data for long range fire. CheyTac papers state that the entire
System is capable to deliver sub-MOA accuracy at the ranges of up to 2500 yards (2270 meters).
The Intervention M200 is a manually operated, rotating bolt rifle. The retractable buttstock allows for adjustment of the length
of pull, and can be fully collapsed for storage and transportation. The barrel can be quickly removed for replacement, or
storage and transportation. The butt contains integral real monopod, which is hinged, and can be folded up when not in use.
The heavy, fluted barrel is free floated, and its rear part is enclosed by tubular shroud, which serves as a mount for integral
folding bipod and carrying handle. Barrel is provided with effective muzzle brake, which can be replaced with OPSINC
suppressor (silencer). M200 rifle is fed using detachable single stack magazines, which hold 5 rounds. Top of receiver is fitted
with permanent MilStd Picatinny rail. Standard scope is Nightforce NXS 5.5-22X, which can be upgraded with AN/PVS-14 Night
Vision module and AN/PEQ-2 IR laser. No iron sights are provided with M200 rifle.
CheyTac Associates also offers a less expensive, non-takedown single shot rifle in .408 caliber, the Intervention M310. This
bolt action rifle with adjustable polymer stock is suitable for long range sport shooting, as well as for police long range snipers.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You're obviously quoting someone else, now that I put it in a quotation box, so why don't you include the source of the quote
in your next post? Then we know who you're quoting and not just trying to pass someone elses words off as your own. :)
ShadowMyGeekSpace July 30th, 2006, 05:48 AM

nbk: He's quoting http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn63-e.htm
c4550 August 5th, 2006, 02:04 AM

My choice would be a current issue military/police sniper rifle. Cost under $1000 (not including scope).
Best value for the money would be the Mosin. Can get those under $100 right now. Not to mention, ammo for it is cheap and
plentiful.
True German K98s, Springfields, etc are worth much more in original configuration, so you would lose value if you ever went to
sell it.
I had a really beat up old SMLE. Cleaned it up, was all pitted badly. But it shot beautifully. A SMLE could be another choice but
they are a bit pricier than a Mosin and the ammo is more costly. They also have a two piece stock that detracts from long
distance accuracy. Mine I shot with iron sights.
If money is an issue, as it is for me, I'd go with the Mosin. Hand pick one with deep sharp rifiling. Have it fitted for a quality
scope and you're in the game :)
professor k August 6th, 2006, 03:07 PM

Nobody's mentioned the Swiss K-31, the ammo is expensive as hell, for a surplus rifle. However, it's supposed to be very
accurate, like under 1MOA. It is a straight pull rifle, not like a regular bolt action rifle. The rifles aren't expensive, around 130.
I think Nagants in unissued condition have good accuracy, too. I saw one thing where the guy got 1 inch groups at 75 yards
with his m44 carbine, but this was only after he unfolded the bayonet. Nagant scope mounts don't cost much, either.
Mauser would probably be best, though, because there's so much you can do with them. There's mausers in all calibers, and
you can get them accurized and the trigger lightened and all that. Also, it is a very popular action, I think many sporting rifles
have a mauser action , and many Mausers were sporterized.
For semi-auto, there's some choices. There's many surplus FALs and G3s here now for around 400-600 dollars. They're not
really that good for sniping, but they have been used for sniping.
You can get a Romak-3 Dragunov for around 400-500, and it fires cheap 7.62x54r, but many people report only 2-3MOA with
milsurp ammo. Keep in mind, most of the ammo is made for the PKM machinegun, it doesn't need to be very accurate. In
russia, the dragunov was made to extend a soviet rifle squad's range, not really to snipe. There is supposedly some match
grade ammo around that gets 1MOA, though, but I havent found any.
The M14, the Norinco wouldnt be a bad base. I heard some were heat treated badly, but most of what I've heard about them
is good. As for the headspacing thing, well, this is kind of funny. .308 Win and 7.62NATO aren't exactly the same. They'll both
feed, chamber, fire, ect in rifles made for eachother, but 7.62 NATO has slightly different headspacing. The Norinco was
headspaced for 7.62 NATO. So, the gunsmiths checking headspacing were using .308 headspace gauges.
If you can find a Norinco M14, buy it. Too bad we in the US can't order Norincos from marstar, as those deals are fucking
awesome (too bad the dollar exchange is just about equal now). However, the Norinco/Polytech M14 can still be gotten in US
for only 400-500 dollars. If you have a friend in Canada, have him get you one and get it across the border (shouldn't be too
hard, especially if you're going with a family, if you're going with a family and a minivan full of shit, they wont check you AT
ALL.)
TreverSlyFox August 7th, 2006, 09:46 AM

Probably the most accurate Military Surplus rifle being sold currently is the Swiss K-31 "Stright Pull" bolt action rifle in 7.5 Swiss.
Excellent examples are being sold currently for under $150 here in the U.S. and most reports are under 2 MOA and many of 1
MOA. The current Swiss 7.5, GP-11 FMJ surplus ammo being sold is "Match" grade ammo, though it's not quite as cheap as
most Military Surplus 8mm, 7.62x54R or 7.62x51NATO.
www.aimsurplus.com is currently selling "Select" grade Swiss K-31's for $149.95 and 7.5 Swiss, GP-11 ammo for $156 for a 480
round case or $3.95 for a 10 round box. Both "Clamp-on" and "Drill & Tap" 1" scope mounts are available from both Graf &
Sons and Brownell's for the K-31.
From Wikipedia:
The K31 is noted for its straight-pull action, meaning that the bolt is pulled directly back, then pushed forward to cycle the
action between shots, rather than being turned and pulled back, as in Mauser pattern rifles such as the K98k.
K31s are also noted for their amazing accuracy. The Swiss considered individual marksmanship to be of utmost importance.
Therefore, the K31 was made with tight tolerances and excellent overall craftsmanship. Many shooters are able to achieve one
minute of arc with unmodified K31s. This means that a group of bullets shot at 100 yards will stay within a 1" diameter area, a
group at 200 yards will stay within 2", etc.
Many collectors of the K31 have removed the butt plate and recovered a small slip of plasticized paper from beneath it. This
slip contains the name and address of the Swiss citizen to whom the rifle was issued. Collectors have used the information to
contact the previous owners in some cases, and have recounted the details of those encounters on a variety of collector's web
forums.
oxbeast August 9th, 2006, 06:34 AM

The K-31s are excellent rifles. The ammunition is a bit expensive, although reloading for it shouldn't be a problem.
K-31s do have quite a few options for scope mounting. Unfortunately I don't know of any synthetic stocks (Or any other
aftermarket stocks for that matter) being available.
Below is a link for an English version of the K-31 Manual.
http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/english_k11_k31_manual.pdf
neo-crossbow August 10th, 2006, 06:51 AM

Now, I'm not doubting the accuracy of the 96, but its not going to match a savage that's been properly broken in and cared
for.
Finally another savage fan, I knew there had to be atleast one. I think your post almost mirrors one of mine pushing the
same envelope!
Accu-triggers are going to be the norm once they catch on. No more smithing required for trigger jobs, and why fork out for an
aftermarket trigger when you pay big bucks in the first place for the rifle>?
ShadowMyGeekSpace August 13th, 2006, 05:18 AM

Finally another savage fan, I knew there had to be atleast one. I think your post almost mirrors one of mine pushing the
same envelope!
Accu-triggers are going to be the norm once they catch on. No more smithing required for trigger jobs, and why fork out for an
aftermarket trigger when you pay big bucks in the first place for the rifle>?
Savages arent even that pricey for the quality. It's the optics that get you.
festergrump August 13th, 2006, 02:03 PM
No sense in ever arguing over which bolt-racker milsurp is going to be the best, as they're all acceptable for this purpose, and
it becomes merely a personal preference beyond much else than MOA at 100 yds. (1 MOA at 100 = 5 MOA at 500 =
acceptable. Providing the barrel's not 'shot out' all C+R milsurp should be capable of this or better). Reputation of the Swiss
7.5mm rifles seem to outweigh most of the other's, FWIW.
Shadowgeek's got a point on the optics, though. You get what you pay for, pretty much. So long as you can get an
aftermarket bolt (bent) where applicable for optics mount, you should be good to go.
So, IMHO, the best answer to the question: "What is the best surplus sniper rifle?" would have to be:
One you can consistantly hit dead center of human head sized target at 500 yards but don't mind detatching the optics and
ditching at the bottom of a murky lake somewhere once you've used it...
(...or was the term "sniper rifle" used loosely by the OP to mean accurate?):confused:
Docca September 12th, 2006, 08:44 AM

A. No sense in ever arguing over which bolt-racker milsurp is going to be the best, as they're all acceptable for this purpose ...
FWIW.
B. Shadowgeek's got a point on the optics, though. You get what you pay for...
C. One you can consistantly hit dead center of human head sized target at 500 yards...
D. But don't mind detatching the optics and ditching at the bottom of a murky lake somewhere once you've used it...
A. Absolutely correct.
B. Also correct. If you want optics that compliment the accuracy of your weapon expect to spend approximately the same on
each - $500 rifle needs $500 optics. You approach "top of the line" optics around U.S. $1500.
C. 500 yds is a damn long shot - anyone who thinks they can make that shot reliably without a lot of practice and a damn
good rifle / ammo is fooling themselves. 5 MPH crosswind at that range equals ~ 10 - 20" (with the best equipment money
can buy), an easy miss on the human head. Your average milsurp bolt action shouldn't even be considered for this type of
work. It should be noted that the longest recorded U.S. swat team sniper shot was ~ 97 yards. A well documented shot by FBI
HRT (Vicki Weaver) was probably closer to 220 yds (and the longest U.S. LE shot I'm aware of).
D. Surely you should plan ahead better than that...
PirateJoe September 24th, 2006, 07:26 PM

+1 for the K-31. hell, any northern european bolt-actions going to be great. swedish mausers, finnish nagants, swiss k-31's,
all excellent and accurate.
Mauser7 April 27th, 2007, 01:03 PM

Swiss K-31 rifles are supposedly the most accurate of the surplus bolt action rifles. However, ammunition is not cheap and
neither are the rifles. The rifles are over 200 dollars and there is no cheap surplus ammunition like there is for the mosin-
nagant and the mauser.
Russia had more snipers during WWII than any other country. The mosin nagant sniper rifles were hand picked for their
accuracy. However, after the war they did not have the need for so many snipers, so many of the rifles had the scopes
removed and were reissued as standard infantry rifles.
You can find an ex-sniper mosin nagant 91/30 fairly easily. When inspecting rifles at a gun show or a gun shop look at the
receiver. If it is an ex-sniper it will have two drill holes on the left side of the receiver that have been filled. These should be
the most accurate mosins as long as the barrel is in good condition and there is no pitting of the barrel. Always inspect the
barrel before buying a rifle! Nothing is worse than getting home and looking at the rusty sewer pipe you have for a barrel.
All of the non US rifles during WWII fired corrosive ammunition, if not cleaned properly it can rust up and pit the barrel. To
combat this, when you clean the rifle spray some windex or warm soapy water down the barrel. Dry completely and then clean
as normal. Also, check the end of the barrel to see if there is any rifling. Buying a 5 dollar bore light at a gun show is a useful
tool. When the mosin nagants were refurbished in the Ukraine, worn out barrels were counterbored. This is where they drill the
end of the rifling out of the barrel to improve accuracy.
Ammunition for the mosin-nagant can be bought in large quantities for about 10 cents a round. You can find a mosin-nagant
91/30 or m44 for about 100 US dollars.
prespec May 2nd, 2007, 08:07 AM

The Karabiner 31 will shoot the pants off most service rifles, but they are fussy with ammo. I have shot the Swiss military
program for about the last ten years, and know what they can do.
With a good rifleman , they will shoot in the the standard ISU 100mm 10-ring all day long at 300 meters. But they do lack
primary extraction and will not close on oversize or dirty ammo....but that does not matter, as the Swiss service 7.5 ammo is
better than most guys can hand-load.
They also have about the same performance as an '06 all day long,actually more like the barrage round, and the bullet is a
true VLD shape, long before that was even thought of.
Being top-ejecting , scope mounting needs to be offset or scout-style.
The Swedish Mauser is a fine rifle too. But I have great difficulty believing they needed to be 1/4 minute tested before being
issued to squaddies.
Most custom gunsmiths , building equivalent rifles....say high end hunting rigs..would still baulk at such a guarantee. Different
story for match rifles. The variables are just too geat in a military situation, and the requirement is unecessary.
Having said that, I built my personal alpine rifle in 6.5x55, because of its efficiency. And it does shoot 1/4 minute.
The 6.5 Swede will shoot flatter than many of the new generation hot-rods due to the high BC of the 129-140 grain pills
available, and do it with less recoil and fuss than most.
The Lee-Enfields were a great battle rifle, but when they were retired from active full-bore competition, target centres were
decreased in size in all countries that used them. Need I say more?
Any of the good, front locking, service rifles of the WW1-WW2 era would be up for sniping, provided they still had good, bright
bores.
My picks would be, in rough order, Mod 17/ P14 Enfield, Any 7x57 Mauser, Any other Mauser , Springfield 03 , Garand M1D,
Schmidt-Rubin, Nagant.
But leaves out a host of others, and any of the above could change places for a lot of reasons.
Bacon46 May 2nd, 2007, 10:51 AM

Ammunition for the mosin-nagant can be bought in large quantities for about 10 cents a round.
Where are you getting your mosin-nagant ammo? I'm having a hell of a time finding it for my sons 91/30.
Charles Owlen Picket May 2nd, 2007, 11:46 AM

I used to know a fellow who insistent that the best barrel in the world can not transform a rifle if the trigger was sloppy, had a
large amount of over-travel, & creep. The two stage trigger needs a special type of stoning to transform it into a target-level
item. Over-travel is inherent in such a design (see Winchester model 70) without a stop screw. Creep and break is controlled
by angle and placement of the engagement ledge as well as it's surface hardness and depth.
This is not to say that the above mentioned rifles are poor by any means but to concentrate on barrel and not look at the
control that the shooter has is (IMO) to absolve the human factor and concentrate on the propulsion of the bullet only as a
means of comparison.
prespec May 2nd, 2007, 03:10 PM

I used to know a fellow who insistent that the best barrel in the world can not transform a rifle if the trigger was sloppy, had a
large amount of over-travel, & creep. The two stage trigger needs a special type of stoning to transform it into a target-level
item. Over-travel is inherent in such a design (see Winchester model 70) without a stop screw. Creep and break is controlled
by angle and placement of the engagement ledge as well as it's surface hardness and depth.
This is not to say that the above mentioned rifles are poor by any means but to concentrate on barrel and not look at the
control that the shooter has is (IMO) to absolve the human factor and concentrate on the propulsion of the bullet only as a
means of comparison.
Many rifles perform well with barrels that are of indifferent quality, for example, factory hammer-forged Remington 700 tubes.
But you must purchase any surplus rifle with at least, a good barrel, with intact rifling and a good bright bore.
The tuning work just starts here, and all subsequent efforts are likely to be wasted without this.
It is also entirely possible to shoot well with a nicely set up two-stage trigger, as long as it has a crisp release once the second
stage is engaged.
I have sorted numerous Win Mod 70 triggers, and this is easily enough done with pivot-pin replacement, re-hardening and
careful polishing of the engaging surfaces. Even backlash can be tamed.
The bench-rest guys need extraordinarily light triggers, as they are after low 0.1" groups, just to stay in the game. But many
fullbore disciplines proscribed triggers under 1.5kg on the range in the mid 1990's, due to safety concerns, and it was
interesting to note how scores did not immediately decline.
Probably the best factory trigger is the Rem 700 and variants. But even these can be adjusted outside the design envelope
and become unreliable.
Installing a third-lever is a great way to overcome this and have a very light trigger.
As for service rifles, there are a welter of good replacement triggers available, - Timney, Dayton Traister, and so-on. They are
not expensive for what they can do, and are not difficult to install.
Xenodius May 2nd, 2007, 03:21 PM

Just my 2 cents, I knew a guy who bought a Yugo 8mm Large ring K98 Mauser, and he bought a scope mount that attaches to
the rear sight, no idea what scope he had though. It was a variable zoom ?x24x50mm, but he didn't do *anything* to the
stock, trigger, etc, and he got >.5 MOA groups! Which is surprising since the barrel wasn't free floated, etc...
I personally own a Yugo 8mm Mauser, with an ATI stock on it. I have yet to get the right scope rings on it, but am currently
shooting military surplus <2800 fps, 173gr, FMJ rounds, and using the iron sights I can easily hit soda cans at 100 yards. I
sometimes wish I could exchange some of the 2,500 rounds I bought for chemicals...
(Note: Shooting those rounds in a Small Ring Mauser could cause the gun to rupture! Any ammo you buy today will be >2350
fps, for that very reason! Thats why I plan on reloading for it)
I also know that German Mausers are supposedly better made, and more accurate. But they are a pretty penny due to
collectors buying them up. I got mine on clearance for $100 bucks, with a wide-arc bolt (test model, 2 year production!) and in
excellent condition. Minus the cosmoline dripping off it. Pain to clean, its like axle grease.
PS: Prespec, my dad has a Rem 700 action, chambered in 22-250, with a Bushnell Elite 4200 8x24x42mm Firefly reticle
scope... That thing can hit just about anything! Very light trigger, long barrel, incredible scope. The whole setup new, however,
would cost nearly $2,000....
InfernoMDM May 2nd, 2007, 10:50 PM

Mosin - Great rifle.
WARNING - Not every Mosin is a sniper rifle. There are tons of different versions and most aren't sniper rifles. You can look
online to find the details but the easiest ways is look down the barrel, if it has lots of twists thats the one you want.
Mil Surplus vs Civilian - Generally most surplus rifles that end up a snipers hands have been in a custom gunsmiths hands.
That being said you are probably better off buying a civilian hunting rifle in whatever caliber then picking up a newer Mil rifle.
The M1A is ok on accuracy, but it takes some work to really get them tuned to .25 MOA. If you want Mil Surplus do your
homework some are easy to modify for better shots, others are great out of the box, then other people believe they are a
sniper with say a M14(M1A).
Ranged shooting - If you don't shoot long ranges don't expect to shoot well from anything, but prone on a stationary target. It
takes practice.
Mauser7 May 3rd, 2007, 01:03 PM

You can look online to find the details but the easiest ways is look down the barrel, if it has lots of twists thats the one you
want.
Look for lots of twists down the barrel?:rolleyes: That doesn't make any sense. If any rifle is going to shoot accurately it needs
to have good rifling. Is that the twists you are talking about? The barrel twist rates were the same for the mosin snipers as
they were for the standard issue mosin nagants. The were handpicked out of the regular service rifles for having the best
accuracy.
The way to know if a rifle was an ex-sniper is to look on the left side of the receiver. The scopes were off set to the left to
allow for the use of stripper clips. If it has two holes that have been filled, that is where they drilled and tapped for the scope
mount. That is how you tell if it was an ex-sniper.
Beware of rifles mounted with the scope already, they may not be actual snipers, but rather fitted with a reproduction scope so
they can sell them for more money.
a good website for mosin nagant info as well as ammunition ballistics is www.7.62x54r.net .
prespec May 3rd, 2007, 05:02 PM

A lot of the really good 1891's were made by what is now Tikka in Finland.
Xenodius...I know how good a Remington 700 can be....I used to earn my living by setting them up.
A new or used 700 would end up on my bench , be pulled apart... then fully worked and quite often fitted with a match grade
barrel. Despite the washboard appearance , the later hammer-forged barrels went just fine, but most of the problems were in
the factory chambering and crowning, which was often rough.
With a modern factory Remington, if you get a good one....great, but a Friday one will need a lot of work. Same applies to
most factory rifles, no matter who makes them.
Pleased to hear the 22/250 is a tack-driver. I have one too and have shot everything from magpies to deer with it , some at +
400 yds.
InfernoMDM May 3rd, 2007, 11:22 PM

[QUOTE=Mauser7;90459]Look for lots of twists down the barrel?:rolleyes: That doesn't make any sense. If any rifle is going
to shoot accurately it needs to have good rifling. Is that the twists you are talking about? The barrel twist rates were the same
for the mosin snipers as they were for the standard issue mosin nagants. The were handpicked out of the regular service rifles
for having the best accuracy.
The way to know if a rifle was an ex-sniper is to look on the left side of the receiver. The scopes were off set to the left to
allow for the use of stripper clips. If it has two holes that have been filled, that is where they drilled and tapped for the scope
mount. That is how you tell if it was an ex-sniper.
Beware of rifles mounted with the scope already, they may not be actual snipers, but rather fitted with a reproduction scope so
they can sell them for more money.
a good website for mosin nagant info as well as ammunition ballistics is www.7.62x54r.net
Yes the rifleing is what I am talking about. The website you showed was fine, but some mosin nagants had far more twists
then others. I am not sure if that is common but my friend had a mosin that had a higher twist rate then a standard Mosin I
believe. I probably should do a bit more reserach but I at the moment am short on time. Also your website is just one of
several out there that goes into details.
I believe it might have been one of the finish designs, but in all honesty I can't remember. There are several models, by
several nations including US, however the finish ones get top dollar these days.

Should be about 1-10" for any .30 cal, using bullets up to 220 gr.
1-12" works just fine with around 150-165 gr bullets driven at 7.62 Russ. / 308 Win speeds too. Both rounds are identical
performance wise,and apart from the rim and neck length, pretty close in dimension.
InfernoMDM May 9th, 2007, 01:58 AM

My apologies, you were absolutely right. I went to my local haunts and they had the one of the collectors addition sniper rifle,
and a few basic Mosins. Same twist rate, but different bolt handle etc.
Charles Owlen Picket May 9th, 2007, 12:31 PM

Probably the best factory trigger is the Rem 700 and variants. But even these can be adjusted outside the design envelope
and become unreliable.
Installing a third-lever is a great way to overcome this and have a very light trigger.
Many Savage owners would dispute that :D However my point is that all the beautiful barrels in the world do not a fine rifle
make if the trigger is shit. Rem-700, Savage's new system, etc are all great but the factory mil trigger is generally quite poor.
Personally I would consider the trigger and barrel together when making an evaluation of mil-surp stuff. And that's very
subjective. Some people don't like creep, others expect it but want no over-travel, etc, etc.
I have seen a Swede and a Styer that had both & that was a rare deal. I also believe that it's damn hard to shoot out a 30 cal
bbl. The gases aren't hot enough and the chances are greater that the owner hurt the lands with a steel cleaning rod more
than the few thousand rounds hurt the rifling.
There is a builder that uses Hirtenburger barrels and claims that the "life" of the bbl is about 10k rounds. Air measurement
tools reveal that the barrel at that point has approx 30% wear from lands at the throat. I suppose that in real bench-rest level
competition that holds some weight but I find it hard to believe that any military would have it's armorer re-barrel just on
number reference alone....
prespec May 9th, 2007, 05:18 PM

Dead right Charles Owen Picket, about poor barrel cleaning! More throats and crowns are ruined by bad cleaning habits than
actual shooting.
Strangely enough, the plastic coated rods are often worse than a polished , hardened steel rod. The plastic eventually picks up
primer residue and other grit , which becomes embedded and makes a very effective hone , whereas the steel rod , if wiped
before use , is much less likely to abrade.
I have heard some good things about the newer Savage 110's and even the early ones were good shooters when set -up
properly.
I agree about the .30 cal and barrel life. Given standard military loads and good care any of the .30 , 8mm military rifles can
maintain useful accuracy for up to 10k rounds. But most full-bore shooters are wise to re-barrel after about 3000-4,500 to stay
in the game.
Bench rest shooters are in an entirely more rigorous discipline , and will throw away barrels which would be considered fine for
anything else.
I believe the Wehrmacht tested the M98 8x57 and found select rifles able to shoot into 1metre at 1000 metres after 10k
rounds. Entirely sufficient for military use.
Many of our club Karabiner 31's have high usage and exhibet the typical European soft rifling form and some have uniform
micro-pitting when viewed through a borescope , although appearing bright to the un-aided eye. They will still shoot into the
10-ring, and the Swiss armorers regard the 10k mark as still viable for military accuracy.
shootodog May 11th, 2007, 12:45 AM

how about the MSSR? I don't know if it's available on surplus but it's based on the M16 which is readily available...
shootodog May 11th, 2007, 01:01 AM

The K-31s are excellent rifles. The ammunition is a bit expensive, although reloading for it shouldn't be a problem.
K-31s do have quite a few options for scope mounting. Unfortunately I don't know of any synthetic stocks (Or any other
aftermarket stocks for that matter) being available.
Below is a link for an English version of the K-31 Manual.
http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/english_k11_k31_manual.pdf
i think the link is dead.
Charles Owlen Picket May 12th, 2007, 11:40 AM

I do not doubt for one second that a plastic cleaning rod could also score the barrel. Any time the weapon is exposed to idiots;
it has more deleterious impact than most any natural cause (except perhaps sea water).
All just my opinion.......However: The removal of copper fowling is something that is rarely spoken of with the emphasis
needed. I have seen barrels that appeared to be worn they had so much fouling. The throat may appear to have some
erosion in it that may be copper as well. All military barrels should be treated for copper fouling before any honest appraisal is
made. Copper fouling can also be responsible for a gas oriented self-loader to malfunction.
A two stage trigger (typical mil-surp) is somewhat unique to that genre'. Here we have a trigger that has "take-up" and the
break may come as no surprise due to the spring stacking at the height of the pull. The best triggers for a multitude of task
break in a manner that somewhat surprises the user. When the user knows the trigger will break they often flinch, put
"English" on the weapon, or simple attempt to over steady. This results in lessened accuracy. The crown of the barrel is also a
pivotal issue. A poorly made or distorted crown will ruin any rifle.
An extremely good example of this is the Ruger 77 bolt weapon. A generally adequate weapon modeled after the Mauser, with
a well made bolt. The trigger is mostly rated as detestable from the factory and the barrel for many are manufactured with
very deep lands & grooves. It is a classic for copper fouling. One of the most fouled barrels I have ever seen was a Ruger. It
took a serious hour of cleaning to remove what about 100 rds could do. And it made a huge difference. A Timmney trigger was
employed to simply get rid of the factory trigger and the results were astounding.
I am deeply convinced that the trigger / barrel combination is the key to starting to get a fine weapon. The above mentioned
Ruger was sold to a friend who does shoot "for real". He bought it from it's owner who just got tired of the trigger and the
fouling. The custom trigger was installed and a medium heavy contour barrel with a 11 degree crown installed started to turn it
into a seriously fine weapon. The barrel was chosen on length of free throat area which optimized the use of the twist type for
7.62 NATO (this case was 1:10) to minimize copper.
I was very impressed with this little project I witnessed. It demonstrated collectively a great deal of the issues which had been
discussed by some of the people here.
Gunjack May 13th, 2007, 03:39 PM

If i had to make the choice i would take a cg63 or even better , a cg80.
These are match rifles made at the Carl Gustaf factory with the original Carl Gustaf actions, triggers,...
In the original caliber(6,5mm) or .308
Only the furniture (stock) and match barrel are the difference.
Far better than any wo2 sniper rifle if you ask me.
That is if they can be considered surplus???
If you local law does they are.
shootodog May 13th, 2007, 10:38 PM

i think the link is dead.
in english, armourer's manual k-11 and k-31 (http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/english_k11_k31_manual.pdf)
also i found this as well (http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/manual/ZfK55_Manual_Eng.pdf)
Mauser7 May 16th, 2007, 01:56 AM

More throats and crowns are ruined by bad cleaning habits than actual shooting.
A good way to avoid messing up your barrel when cleaning it is to use a bore snake. It is basically a rope that goes through
the barrel instead of a steel or brass rod. You should be able to pick one up at any gun shop. A .30 cal bore snake is all you
need for a variety of .30 cal firearms.
However my point is that all the beautiful barrels in the world do not a fine rifle make if the trigger is shit.
Just about any surplus rifle has a variety of aftermarket triggers that can help fix trigger creep or excessive lbs of pull. The
mauser has probably the most available due to the action being so popular for alot of custom built rifles. There are also after
market triggers for the mosin. With most of the aftermarket triggers you can adjust the lbs of trigger pull.
A site that comes to mind for aftermarket triggers is www.midwayusa.com . Their prices are fairly reasonable and the shipping
isn't too expensive either.
nbk2000 May 16th, 2007, 02:25 AM

Grit gets embedded into the fiber of the boresnake rope, eventually turning it into a sandpaper rope, and rather quickly too.
Fine for quick cleaning of crappy rifles in the field, but not for any kind of precision rifle!

I would never use a boresnake or any other pull-through type cleaner apart from expedient field cleaning. They often get
dragged past the crown at an angle, and a lot of surplus rifles show uneven wear due to this.
If you really have to use one, pull it straight out.
Crowns can often be salvaged by running a brass , dome -head screw in a drill with grinding paste if a lathe is unavailable, but
it takes a while.
I have made up muzzle guides for cleaning rods for some of my auto's , which can not be readily cleaned from the breech .
The M1 ,M14, Mini 14 etc.
a3990918 March 10th, 2008, 04:34 PM

I'm still fond of my ole .303 Enfield sportster over my Mauser. The Enfield has sentimental value, my dad bought it mail-order
back in 53'.:) The Mauser was a gift from a friend a few years back.
Charles Owlen Picket March 10th, 2008, 07:50 PM

This thread deals with either a misnomer or a concept that really has not been addressed. I doubt that anyone is selling a
surplus M40A1, etc. So by surplus I suppose what common surplus rifle could be tuned into a target rifle? And with that in mind
I wonder how far people are willing to go to get sub-1MOA groups....(?)
I have a barrel vise and have built some rifles in my time. I have started with a 98 Mauser receiver and plopped a Krieger
barrel (7.62 NATO) moderate heavy taper 26" and Timney trigger on a bedded stock (store bought). That little sweetheart ran
sub 1 MOA with fair glass at 200meters. But I traded it off a while ago. This thing has been run up at rec.guns for years on
end.....
The last thing I worked on was another Mauser 98 with an actual heavy (1.35" no taper!) in 300 win mag to see if I could even
get on paper @1100yds and it did but I can't shoot like a old friend of mine who actually is competitive. I don't even rank in
the real Camp Perry level shit.
I am very lucky that I can literally drive 5 minutes and be shooting on a friend's property. We "lasered" it and made up a little
range from 100-1100yrds. but from what little I know about real sniping, I don't think I have close to that level of skill nor
have I ever been in that good of shape (those people are a whole different world from my arm-chair thing).
However, one damn good rifle was the WWI rifle commonly known as a American Enfield in '06. that's good buy if you can get
a decent one. Those generally group, even with a mil trigger.
MrSamosa April 25th, 2008, 01:27 AM

My friends and I all have a wide range of surplus rifles between us that we take to the range on our "range days." I actually
sold my two surplus rifles though...and bought a shiny new AR-15 :D. I *owned* a K-31, however, and I am very partial
towards it. In fact, I think I might buy another one to participate in competition shooting.. For sniping/long range shooting,
you can't go wrong with it.
First thing, the Swiss had mandated that all ammunition used in their rifles be non-corrosive. So the rifle's stock will almost
invariably look like crap (lots of stories behind that), but the barrel will be *shiny.* Oh, and the original design for the K31 had
the barrel free floating. You don't need special skills to give the rifle a free floating barrel.
And about that ammo: GP-11 ammo is some of the best ammo I've used. I prefer it over the commercial ammo (although
Prvi Partizan makes good stuff and is reloadable). It's clean, has the perfect shape, and it hits hard (well, I can only say that
non-scientifically based on a "test" we did against a medicine ball at the range. A 7.62x39 and .308 all had their turn at it, but
the 7.5x55 had the final word: it ripped the thing to pieces).
It is a very classy bolt action rifle. The straight pull is very fast, smooth, and lessens your bodily motions while you get back
on target. Plus it packs a 6 round detachable magazine (although a replacement mag goes for $50ish...it was still meant to
be reloaded via stripper clips). The trigger is excellent; right up there with the Enfield. It is also very light-weight and "quick"--
the iron sights aren't great for precision [although they are still high quality], but they are very open and give the shooter a
wide field of view (they're similar to Kalashnikov sights).
In addition, now that they're becoming more popular here in the US, there are a lot of accessories out for it--look up the name
"St. Marie". They offer among other things a scope mount, diopter sights (essential for competition shooting), muzzle breaks,
bipods, and buttpads. I'd strongly recommend a buttpad, or at least a proper shooting jacket with shoulder padding. The steel
buttplate on the K31 can hurt you. If you don't mind permanently modifying your milsurp rifle, go for the drill/tap scope
mount, which mounts on the left side of the rifle. Otherwise there is a clamp on mount (very sturdy) which mounts on the right
side, but seems kind of awkward. Remember: don't fit the rifle, make the rifle fit you.
lucas April 28th, 2008, 10:41 AM

I think a Husqvarna or other Swedish Mauser in 6.5 X 55, in good condition is a good choice if it's cheap.
A Finnish Mosin-Nagant is a good one too. Very well made and accurate. Probably one of the best choices possible. The 7.62 X
54R cartridge is capable of doing anything the .308 can.
Locally there aren't so many good bolt action military rifles left cheap. It's better in this city to buy a new gun if accuracy is
critical. Mounting a scope on old rifles isn't as straight forward as on a new one. A bit of machining knowledge will let one fit a
scope base without much trouble, but not everybody has those skills.
Guns like the Carcano have a bolt that goes straight up when open and prevent top mounting a scope. Side mounting a 'scope
is not ideal. Didn't help JFK though.
For $1000 one can buy something brand new and a 'scope that will do the job you want and that prevents searching through all
the old ones looking for a good bore and crown. I saw an original .303 sniper the other day. It was sold from a dealer to a
dealer for $1500. It will retail for a lot more. The value is in the history and not the performance.
A Tikka varmint in 6.5 X 55 isn't a bad choice and with a Leupold VXI 4-12 would be as good as most people need, but it's
over $1000 local dollars. A Howa / Legacy / Weatherby Vanguard with a Tasco 'scope shoots straight enough and that is well
under $1000, especially in the USA. The Vanguard is a great value rifle and it's new with a warrantee. Not many 1942 Enfields
have a warantee.
I've looked for decent military rifles before, but I cant seem to find one that's cheap and good, so I haven't got one. It's
probably a matter of what's local.
MrSamosa May 3rd, 2008, 02:47 PM

I think a Husqvarna or other Swedish Mauser in 6.5 X 55, in good condition is a good choice if it's cheap.
A Finnish Mosin-Nagant is a good one too. Very well made and accurate. Probably one of the best choices possible. The 7.62 X
54R cartridge is capable of doing anything the .308 can.
Much agreed on 6.5x55 Swedish round. It is extremely effective for long-range tack-driving. At ranges beyond 1000 yds, it
retains more energy than .308.
Finnish Nagants, as I recall, are largely Russian captures and improvements. In any case, if you've ever felt the difference
between the two, the Finnish is clearly the superior choice simply from a "comfort" level.
As for the 7.62x54R round, there's a lot of new stuff on the market. For precision work, avoid old nasty surplus ammo. It's
unpredictable and bad for your barrel. The 7N1 round, in current production, is supposed to be very good. If you're going for a
Nagant, just make sure the barrel's not corroded to hell and the crown is in good shape. [The same applies for a Mauser]
Remember, these rifles were designed for WWI-style trench warfare: long range shooting from fixed, covered positions.
Mauser, K31, Mosin-Nagant, Springfield, Enfield, etc... they can all perform the basic task of putting a bullet on target reliably
up to 800 yards. The choice one has to make comes down to the following:
-which has more new production, high quality ammunition (and cheap?) ammunition?
-which is in better shape after all these years?
-*which is most comfortable to operate?*: how does it feel to actually hold? how is the trigger pull? Does cycling the bolt
require a great change in posture (e.g., straight handles = more arm movement)?
-How quickly could you get back on target?
-Do you like the iron sights? (You won't do all your shooting with a scope; especially if it's really sunny out or the target is
within a reasonable range)
-How easily can a scope be mounted? (e.g.: K31 requires some awkwardness. A Hakim is near impossible to mount a scope
onto; but if it had one, it would be an awesome platform)
Oh, and don't "bubba" your rifle too much; all too often, it ends in tragedy for the gun. If it's not broken, don't fix it.
My choices, in order then: K31, Karl Gustav M96, Finnish Nagant, Mosin-Nagant 91/30 [If you can find a "PU," even a
bastardized one, all the better].
I don't include the German Mauser for a good reason. It uses a dead cartridge: 8mm. No modern weapon uses it and the
surplus stuff is starting to run dry. If you do find a batch of surplus, often times it is low-grade machinegun ammo. Current
production ammo is made to SAAMI specs, and is rather anemic--you're not going to get a full powered round. If you buy
European ammo (e.g.: Sellier & Bellot), then it's worth considering...but for $.50 a shot, you can do better with 6.5x55 swedish
(popular for hunting) and 7.5x55 swiss (still in manufacture--the swiss love their guns, even the old ones).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Rifles and Shotguns > .32 NAA carbine?
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View Full Version : .32 NAA carbine?
sparkchaser January 19th , 2007, 06:34 AM

A couple of years ago, I picked up a new in the b o x M a u s e r 8 m m rifle for about $225. After som e r a n g e t i m e ( a n d t o n s o f
cosmoline scrubbing!), I noticed that the rifle was wildly inaccurate (17 inch group at 100 yards was the worst grouping, 10
inches was the best!). Being that the rifle was inaccurate anyways, I decided to sh orten it a bit to have a little fun.
W hat I wound up with was a great little point n shoot toy that m a k e s a h u g e b o o m a n d l o t s o f m u z z l e f l a s h , u s i n g c h e a p
surp lus m il. am mo. Fun stuff!
I also have about 12-14 inches of barrel that I figure could be used for a basis of a Paul Luty-esq carbine (semi-auto of
course!:rolleyes:) firing NAA's newish .32 round.
http://www.naam inis.com/32NAArel.htm l
Any com m e n ts or suggestions? Any ideas where I m ight be able to pick up a cham ber ream er for this round?
A Z D esertRat January 19th , 2007, 10:44 AM

Because this is a new cartridge the availability of reamers are pretty scarce. The .32NAA is a .380 cartridge necked down to
acce pt .32AC P slugs. Visit www.Brownells.com and review the cham b e r r e a m e r s f o r b o t h t h e . 3 8 0 a n d . 3 2 A C P . Y o u s h o u l d b e
able to design a one-off "D" ream er without m uch troub le. However, be sure to safely test the new chamber. You don't want to
get stuck with the mo niker of "Lefty":e e k :
defiant January 19th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 1 : 4 5 P M

http://www.m a n s o n r e a m ers.com/
If th ey don't have them they'll m a k e e m . T h e y m ake quality tools, but they're not cheap. But even if one were available at
half the price, its not econom ical buyin g a ream er for a one off (unless its something really special).
If you want to build a firearm a n d n e e d a b a r r e l google for surplus military barrel.
InfernoMDM January 23rd , 2007, 01:22 AM

sparkchaser - I recently went around shopping for a pocket gun on a whim . I decided not to since I already had a 9m m i n a
compact size . However I cam e across your 32 NAA and was intrig ued by the rum ors about it. The simple information is, the
round is apparently as effective as a 380, but isn't something so am azing it would make a carbine extrem ely effective.
Although you would get a increase in m any of the ballistic traits, I don't think it would m erit a carbine. Also figuring the round
h a s o n l y o n e m ajor benefit, it's size, the carbin e would negate that .
Cobalt.45 January 23rd , 2007, 04:40 AM

This round answers a question that nobody asked.
It re m i n d s m e of turbochargin g a H o n d a 5 0 .
Docca January 23rd , 2007, 07:49 AM

This round answers a question that nobody asked.
It re m i n d s m e of turbochargin g a H o n d a 5 0 .
W ell stated.
It's about the equivilant of paying extra m oney to buy .22 m a g n u m a m m o .
Q - W hat can you accom plish with .22 m a g n u m that you can't accom plish with .22 L R ? A m m o costs at least double...
A - Nothing.
sparkchaser January 29th , 2007, 07:04 AM

If you want to build a firearm a n d n e e d a b a r r e l google for surplus military barrel.
W hat I have is a cut off sectio n of m ilitary surplus barre l.
Although you would get a increase in m any of the ballistic traits, I don't think it would m erit a carbine.
See above. Just making do with what I have, this is about im pro vised weapons after all. The reaso n I picked that particular
round is that it has the best overall ballistic traits in a .32 (8m m) sized round. If you're forced to u s e a n u n d e r p o w e r e d p i e c e o f
shit, it might as well be the highest powered of the underpowered pieces of shit.
If you find yourself in a race with a Viper and a Porche and all you have to run is a Honda 50 with the stakes being life and
death, that turbo m ig ht look pretty nice!
A - Nothing.
After m any years of hunting, I can honestly say there are m any critters that I'd happily take down with .22 W MR tha t I'd never
attem pt with .22 LR, in a rifle at any rate. W ith pistols you are right, the velocity increase isn't enough to be concerned with.
It's kinda like those fellas tha t are ma king .50 BMG pistols, great for the novelty, not so much for practicality.
By the looks of things though I m ay ju st go with .32 ACP to sim plify things a bit.
InfernoMDM February 1st, 2007, 0 7 : 4 8 P M

I agree with your look at the 32 NAA round. Like most o f the gun dealers floating around they really think the new bullet has
s o m e m erit for pocke t pistols. I personally am not a big fan of turning it into a carbine, but I would be interested in seeing it
done.
john_smith February 21st, 2007, 09:37 PM

IIR C the 32NAA is actually ma de from s h o r t e n e d 9 m m b r a s s ( 3 8 0 c a s i n g s wouldn 't safely withstand it's high cham b e r
p r e s s u r e ) , a n d , c o m e to think about it, m ight actually be quite useful in places like U K etc. Looks like it could - with proper
bullets, of co urse - be actually m a d e a rm or piercing, yet can be safely fired from a blowba ck. Also, pieces of rifled b arrel and
reloadable brass would probably be ea siest to find in 7.62 and 9mm , respectively (barrels from assorted deactivated rifles,
9 m m brass from s h o o t i n g r a n g e s f r e q u e n t e d b y m i l / p o l i c e p e r s o n n e l ) .
Perhaps a Stetchkin style FA pistol cham bered in this - som ething like the Bill Holmes internal slide design with a longer barrel/
grip + double stack m a g , f o r e x a m ple - m ight be a m ore practical alternative to trying to build a decent-powered (9m m or
above), locked breech pistol without proper tools.
InfernoMDM February 22nd, 2007, 02:21 AM

The more I see this post come back up I think it would be a great pet project.
Although I don't think you would get the velocities to penetrate armor.
THAT Dude April 13th, 2007, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by docca
A - Nothing.
I feel a need to defend the .2 2 Magnu m.
A . 2 2 M a g n u m out of a pistol is equivalent to a .22 Long rifle ou t of a rifle.
http://www.gunblast.com /Taurus-941Ultralite.htm
http://www.naam inis.com/naaveloc.htm l
http://www.gunblast.com /Paco _BlackWidow.htm

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Rifles and Shotguns > R e m i n g t o n 8 7 0 S h otgun
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View Full Version : Remington 870 Shotgun
Vitalis April 2nd, 2008, 09:22 PM

I've noticed that there aren't m any shotgun threads here yet, so I've started one.
I o w n a R e m i n g t o n 8 7 0 a n d t h i n k i t ' s a g o o d a l l - p u r p o s e s h o t g u n, I'm ju st wondering what everyone else thinks about it and if

they've m ade any useful modifications to theirs.
BlackFalcoN April 2nd, 2008, 10:18 PM

They are nice guns and have been a long-time favourite by police in the USA I believe, probably with good reason.
W h e n i t c o m e s t o p u m p action shotguns, I thin k a lot depends on personal preference, since they all basicly have to do the
s a m e thing: release a projectile that is not very aerodynam ically to start from through a relatively short, un rifled barrel.
Extrem e precision is not a possible with a shotgun due to it's design concept. Yet within a range of 15 m eters, there is nothing
that beats th e l e t h a l i t y o f a g o o d 1 2 g a u g e l o a d e d w i t h b u c k s h o t . ( M a y b e e x c e p t f o r a C l a s s 3 m a c h i n e g u n , b u t g o od luck
getting one of those :rolleyes: )
I p r e f e r t h e M o s s b e r g 5 0 0 / 5 9 0 s e r i e s m yself.
They are overall substantially cheaper than the Rem ingtons, yet they perform as well (or even better) than the Rem ington
870. (according to others, since I neve r owned a 870)
L i k e t h e 8 7 0 , t h e y a l s o h a v e m ultiple barrel length options and are available in different finishes.
T h e M o s s b e r g 5 0 0 i s a l s o t h e o n l y p u m p a c t i o n t h a t p a s s e d t h e U S A r m y's Mil-Spec 3443E test. (reliability test under extrem e
conditions).
T h e r e a r e a l s o a b i t m o r e a f t e r - m arket accessories available for the Mossberg 500/590 I think. (but that's not a very decisive
a r g u m e n t , s i n c e m o s t a f t e r m a r k e t p a r t s a r e n o t e s s e n t i a l , a n d m ost essentials are available to a 870 as well )
As for m odifications to a shotgun:

I personally like the Tac Star side saddle that allows to carry 6 rounds ex tra on th e receiver; very conveniently to qu ickly
change a buckshot load for a slug load when not having the tim e to go trough your pockets to look for one.
A l s o , h a v i n g a m m unition on the gun m a k e s y o u n o t h a v e t o l o o k f o r a m m o w h e n a h o m e invader wakes you up at 4 o'clock in

the m orning, since the am mo is already there.
I also like the heat shield to mount on the barrel. There is little tactical advantage to be gained from this, except that you
can't easily burn your fingers anym ore on a hot barrel. Plus they look good on the shotgun too :co ol:
A sim ple sling, allows you to dism ount the gun and still carry it while you perform other actions with your 2 hands. No need to
go ber fancy there, heck even a piece of solid rope could basicly perform that function.
I can see a certain advantage in having a tactical light mounted on the g un, since a shotg u n r e a l l y i s a d e d i c a t e d 2 h a n d e d
weapon to be effective, and you don't have a spare hand as with a pistol to hold a flashlight. In defensive situations, you want
to be able to light a target before you make a shot. A 500$ Sure-fire offers only m arginally m ore tactical effectiveness than a
clam p m ounted 20$ Mini Maglite I thin k, yet co sts 25 tim es as much. Better invest in a sp are set of rechargeable batteries
instead :p
Personally I would never consider putting a pistol grip on a shotgun, except m aybe only for dedicated breaching applications,
where a limited am o u n t o f s h o t s h a s t o b e m ade and the shotgun fills a support role.
A fixed solid stock provides better recoil m a n a g e m e n t a n d a i m i n g ( e s p e c i a l l y f o r f i r i n g s l u g s ) .
R e m ember that a fixed stock can always be converted to a pisto l grip in a truly SHTF situa tion.(it just takes 3 minutes for Mr
Hacksaw blade to ach ieve the desired result:D)
A l s o , f o r t h e R e m i n g t o n 8 7 0 , M o s s b e r g 5 9 0 a n d o t h e r s , t h e r e e x i s t m a g a zine tube extensions, which will increase your

m agazine capacity (which is a bit of a negative on a Mossberg 500, since it's design won't allow for an extension :( ).
Lastly I would consider putting ghost rings on a ny shotg un, since an ordinary bead site is really only suitable for CQB with
(buck)shot.
If you want to make longer shots with slugs or sabots, you truly need a better m e a n s o f a im i n g t h e g u n t h a n t h e p l a i n b e a d
site. A slug penetrating a m ini-van at 50 meters is nice to have, but really useless if you were originally aim ing for the guy
stan ding 10 m eters to the left of it.
Any gun is only as go od as it is aimed, and when shooting rifled slugs, you really need som e t h i n g b e t t e r t h a n b e a d s .
That's just m y oppinion on how a basic "tactical" pump action shotgun sh ould look like, I'm sure others will disagree :p
phrankinsteyn April 3rd, 2008, 01:03 AM

BlackFalcoN,
I think you p retty well covered it concerning the M o s s b e r g . A s y o u p o s t e d , the ma g a z i n e t u b e e x t e n s i o n i s t h e o n l y p r o b l e m /

flaw I have with this shotgun (but I still own two of them ). I favor a shotgun, for self defense, (I have poor eye sigh t :() and
l i k e a g r e n a d e , y o u d on't need pin point accuracy to be effective (if using 00 or 000 buckshot).
Vitalis April 3rd, 2008, 01:29 AM

Y e a , I ' v e h e a r d s o m e p e o p l e s a y t h e y p r e f e r t h e M o s s b erg over the Rem ington, but I know som e o n e w h o s h o o t s a l o t a n d
they said to go with the Remington.
Nothing beats a shotgun with som e 00 or 000 buck for close range defen s e .
I've got to lo ok into the m a g a z i n e t u b e e x t e n s i o n s , t h a t sounds like a good idea. I've already got a butt stock shell holder so
I have extra shells at m y disp osal, but the higher capacity, the better.
Charles Owlen Picket April 3rd, 2008, 10:30 AM

Mossburg 500/590 has a alloy receiver and less overall parts than the Remington ; the weight factor making som e p e o p l e f e e l
that the 590 kick a bit more than the 870. But it really the comb that determ ines that recoil feel. T h e R e m ington has a thin,
graceful grip and doesn't drop a t t h e s t e e p a n g l e t h a n t h e 5 0 0 / 5 9 0 .
The 590A1 won several m ilitary contracts surviving a torture test in which one 590A1 digested 25,000 rounds and m i k e d t h e
s a m e after n ot having any problem s. The real m ilitary Mossburg s all have alloy trigger guards & safety's (little known tid-bit).
450,000 were made for a contract that was superseded by Benelli getting a share & about 60-80,000 were sold at the public
level.
R e m ington h ave the largest public-service sales and contracts. One for the US State Dept. was the most lucrative & was the
opening of their stealing the "Marine C oat" silver coloured finish FROM Mossburg (little known tid-bit).
R e m ington's 870 in the hands of the Nation's police num ber over 500,00 0. Military contracts were few but existed. R e m i n g t o n
bought out Ithica (tre nch shotgun contract) and had started producing the production runs of the AO W 14" barrels for various
entities; a new production of Class III since the Ban (little known tid-bit).
Rbick April 4th, 2008, 10:16 AM

My father has an old left handed 870 that is over 25 years old. Its beat to hell but it still works just as well as it did the first
day he bought it. We actually used it as a paddle when we lost our oar in the m arsh one day while hunting. He's always telling
m e " T h a t g u n h a s s h o t m ore ducks than you could ever imagine!". Its a great gun though, and he still uses it.
I've noticed that getting a nice pistol g rip stock, folding stock, or telescopic stock, is hard to find unless you have a Mossberg
o r R e m ington. I've been searching for a nice stock for my Browning BPS 12 ga. but I can't seem to locate o n e . I ' m p l a n n i n g o n
purchasing a Mossberg 500 Persuader in the near future. You ca n find them w/ te lescopic stocks for about 300$.
Super Chief April 19th, 2008, 09:44 PM

C u r r e n t l y I h a v e 5 8 7 0 s a n d I g a v e o n e t o m y son as a gift last Christm as. His is an Express Magnum with a cantilever rifled
barrel in 12 GA. W ith sabot slugs and a scope, it's as accurate as most rifles within it's effective range. The gun is m eant for
deer hunting with that setup. It has the synthetic stocks. An R3 or newer Super Cell recoil pad goes a long way in tam ing the
felt recoil. My 870s are all Wingmasters. The oldest is a 1969 standard a nd the latest is one of the new Light Contour guns
w i t h R e m C h o k e a n d c h a m bers 3" shells. I've got an older Magnum that handles the 3" shells as well. The older guns are
f i x e d c h o k e a n d o n l y t h e n e w o n e h a s t h e c h a n g a b l e c h oke tubes. I just mentioned all that to show the variety in 870s. I
didn 't m e n t i o n t h e 3 . 5 " S u p e r M a g . I d o n ' t h a v e o n e o f t h o s e y e t .
As for a grea t gun, Field & Stream listed the 87 0 num ber 2 in it's list of "The 50 Best Shotguns Ever Made" . A Purdey side-b y-
side was num ber 1.
http://www.fieldandstream.com/article_gallery.jsp?ID=1000014271&page=2
The 870 has changed little since they started m aking them in 1950. Mechanically my new 870 is like the one I have from
1969. The only difference is the screw in choke tubes and the new keyed safety.
As for the Mossberg, I was just viewing an AGI video on them . The early pum ps h ad bugs, but the com pany im p r o v e d t h e g u n s
over the years. The n e w e r g u n s a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e g o o d g u n s . I ' m a R emington fan, so I'd go with an Express for about $300
before gettin g a Mossberg. My 870 LC costs about $800, but it's a fancy grade. A friend of m y s o n h a s a M o s s b e r g a n d h e ' s
happy with it.
In the end it pretty m uch comes down to preference. R e m i n g t o n h a s t h e h i g h e n d W ingm aster for aesthetic values and the
Express for utilitarian needs. Mechanically both versions are outstanding. Mossberg m a k e s a g o o d p u m p , a n d t h e l o w e r e n d i s
a b o u t t h e s a m e a s t h e 8 7 0 E x p r e s s . C heck out Gunbroker.com and GunsAmerica for som e good pricing. Did I m e n t i o n I h a v e
a c o u p l e o f 1 1 0 0 s e m i-autos? One is standard and the other is a Duck Magnum. I've got a few other guns in the sa fe, but n o
other shotguns ... yet.
Hope that helps. Here's a link for the Mossberg video.

http://torrents.thepiratebay.org/39706 41/AGI-_Mossberg_500____s_Arm orer_Course.3970641.TPB.torr ent
Check first to see if its listed here on the forum s o m ewhere. I'm a newb and still looking around.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Rifles and Shotguns > .308 Sava g e F P 1 0
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View Full Version : .308 Savage FP10
Rbick April 4th, 2008, 03:32 PM

Savage has come a long way in the last few years. 10 years ago if you had asked for an accurate Savage rifle for competitive
long distance shooting, people would have laughed in your face. Recently howeve r, they have mad e s o m e i m p r e s s i v e
advances in their long distance shooting design. Their new m o d e l s a r e m uch m ore accurate, and com e with an already build in
Accu trigger, which is an adjustable trigger from 1 1/2 up to 4 lbs. Very nice for a factory trigger.
Last year I decided to purchase a bran d new .308 Savage for around 950$. It was a LE Choate folding stock model with a 20 ''
barrel, rifling rate of twist 1:10". Free float and buttoned heavy barrel, all weighing about 12 pounds. I'll ha ve you k now that
during my military experience, I was not a sniper. I was actually heavy weapons, but I picked up long distance shoo t i n g a s a
hobby after a cross training session with our snipers.
I a d d e d a b i p o d a n d a 5 x 1 5 p o w e r s c o pe. The scope was a Bushnell Tactical 3200 Series, which was about 300$. From the
reviews I read, it is the best optics you can get for that price. I would have to agree, as thus far it has worked well for m e a n d
is exceptionally clear. I am a b l e t o s p o t m y buddies bullets when he is firing and can give him adjustm ents. For those who
don't know, while long range shooting, you can watch your shooters bullets (the heat train it leaves m ostly) as they travel
through the air if you have nice optics. This is usually done with a spottin g scope, but a scope on your rifle can work fine too. It
didn 't fog up during the winter while sh ooting either, even in one instance were it was -5* F. I also put a nice bipod on, which
cost me about 80$.
Now for the fun part. I made sure to profession ally brea k i n t h e b a r r e l . T h e e x a c t m e t h o d I c a n n o t p u l l o f f t h e t o p o f m y h e a d ,
but I have it in my notes somewhere. I will post them if and when I find them. Breaking in the barrel prope rly is im portant for
long range rifles, especially later down the road after putting tho u s a n d s o f r o u n d s t h r o u g h it. I bought 168 grain BT (Boat Tail)
W inchester rounds and have stuck with them since. The first few boxes were simp ly for breaking in, and where shot at a targ et
about 100 yards out. At first, the groups weren't im pressive, but approaching the last 20 rounds or so, they started landed
inside of each other.
I started to move the target further ou t, and eventually had it zeroed at 600 yard s, which was my goal. At 600 yards, I was
able to put 6 rounds within 6 inches of each other (1 MOA). Note that the form ulas for windage, drop, ect. will not be discussed
in this post, I'll post m y notes for those later in a different section. I m oved a target out to 900 ya rds, which was the furthest
that the property I was shooting at would allow me. It was a relatively calm day, so wind wasn't much of a p roblem (there was a
breeze of about 3mph out of the south). I traced a life size silhouette of a human on the target. Keeping the zero at 600, I
u s e d t h e b o t t o m m il dot and fired 10 rounds at the target. I then drove down to the target, as it was now over half a mile
away. 9 rounds had h it the target in the chest/upper abdom en, all within 9 inches of each other, and 1 had hit the shoulder, a
fault of m ine I'm sure. I should also note that I was firing in the p r o n e p o s i t i o n o n a s h o o ting m at.
In conclusion, I really like this rifle. It works great for someone just getting in to the sport and is very affordable. I spent about
1 4 0 0 $ o n a s y s t e m that can a ccurately engage targets at 900 yards. The shorter barrel, 20'' as opposed to the usual 24'' or
26'', m akes it useful in confined urban areas or as a pa trol rifle. The folding stock makes it great for storage, better
concealm ent, or carrying.
T h e b a d t h i n g s I h a d h a p p e n i n v o l v e d t h e o p t i c s a n d a m munition. The scope was m axed at 600 yards, req uiring new rings if I
wanted to zero any further. However, the mil dots have m ade up for this and if I want, I can spend 50$ on new rings, which
isn't bad at all. Also, I had two mis-fires when the temperature was around -5*F. The am munition I was using that day, which
was federal because I couldn't get anything else, was not perform ing well. So this could be due to the am m o, not the weapon.
It should also be noted that weapons do in fact "prefer" certain am mo. So no more federal for my rifle.
H a s a n y o n e e l s e h a d e x p e r i e n c e w i t h a S a v a g e rifle?
BlackFalcoN April 5th, 2008, 08:50 PM

It's a great rifle I've heard !
The Savage 10/110 series are very affordable rifles and a lot of them are sub-MOA right out of the box without any after
m arket parts.
They com e standard with a free floating, heavy barrel and the AccuTrigger allows for fine tuning trigger pull to your own likings
without having a gunsmith do it for you or doing a unreliable trigger job yourself.
As you m entioned, th ere is also a great selection of stocks available for this gun.
The folding stock is n ice to ha ve on the 20" .308 version I think; it would m a k e f o r a c o m p a c t l o n g r a n g e p recision rifle that's
perfectly suitable for urban de p l o y m e n t & frequ ent repositioning in, on and around buildings.
Such a gun would provide a great platform for using a sound suppressor on in that environm ent. ( If you are willing to jum p
through all the hoops that are required in the US to get your Cla ss3 device ;))
Even if you u sed regular 168 grains supersonic, the suppressor would still elim i n a t e m u z z l e f l a s h a nd the typical discharge
s o u n d o f h o t g a s e s c o m ing into contact with cooler air + it would increase your accuracy an d velocity a bit.
How is the fo lding 'hinge' on your folding stock Rbick since I have an old Choate on anoth er rifle that is not 100% steady wh e n
shouldered ?
S o m ething not all people know; the Savage 10FP is also availab l e a s a n e v e n m ore economical ve rsion, under the nam e
Stevens 200.
I t u s e s t h e s a m e Savage rece iver and most com ponents, but without the AccuTrigger. The y also re p l a c e t h e s t a n d a r d S a v a g e
stock with an el-cheapo polym er stock, but it still offers the same MO A perform a n c e a s a n y Savage 10FP.
From a review on the Stevens 200:

http://www.shootingtim es.com /longgun_reviews/stevens200_041 1 0 6 / i n d e x . h t m l
To get the price tag down without sacrificing quality, Savage did exactly what car manufacturers do--offer a base pro duct that's
essentially the sam e u n d e r t h e h o o d a s t h e h i g h e r e n d m o d e l s a n d t h e n let the higher end m odels with the extra b e l l s a n d
whistles carry the m argin. In terms of automobiles, then, the Stevens 200 can be thought of as the base, with the Savage-
brand being the upgrade thus carrying more options such as left-hand, d ifferent finishes, wood sto cks, and m uzzle porting.
I'm considering to buy a Stevens 200 m yself if I can find a dealer that sells them where I live, since the price difference is
quite substantial (300 USD retail -- I'm still in that phase in life where I can't justify spending 1500$ on any weapon :D ).
I'll probably still have t o s p e n d a n o t h e r 50$ or so on a trigger pull job, since the trigger pull on a Stevens 200 is m ore
targetted to hunting than it is to long range precision shooting
If I can't find a dealer then I'll go for the 10FP in .308W in 24" m yself. ( The extra couple hundred $ will get m e that nice
Accu Trigger that is praised by every firearm reviewer as being state-of-the-art)
I probably will put a Harris 9-13" bipod on it, sim p l e s l i n g a n d m aybe upgrade the stock to a McMillan fixed fiberglass stock or
the Choate "John Plaster Ultim ate Sniper" if I'm not satisfied with the standard stock.
Not quite sure what scope I will put on such a rifle.

Probably I'll go for a lower-end fixed 10x40 or 4-12x40 scope with mil-dot reticle with extended afterm arket windage &
elevation dia ls on it.
I n s t e a d o f s p e n d i n g l o t s o f m o n e y o n a p i e c e o f o v e r l y e x p e n s i v e g l a s s ( Z e i s s , L e u p o l d , . . . ) , I w o u l d i n s t e a d s p e n d it on a
laser rangefinder and a Kestrel wind m eter, since top accurate variables are ESSENTIAL in ballistic calculations for 60 0 - 1000 +
yard shots. (As you probably will point out soon in the o ther thre ad with form ulas you'll post ;) )
Gone are the days where rang e & wind estimation took years and years of experience and sniper fieldcraft to perfect.
Also I'd use m y palmtop with ballistic software to calculate drop & windage adjustments instantly. (kind of like the $$$ CheyTac
Ballistic Computer).
The only sm all minus I see on the Savage 10FP is the lacking of a removable m agazine throught a floorplate (something a
R e m ington 7 00 BDL does have); but the concept behind a long range precision rifle is not firing a lot of rounds and having to
reload very often.
No real hands-on experience with a Savage FP10 so far from m y side, but I've researched them now for quite some tim e a n d
I'm anticipating to bu y one of these little wonders m yse lf ;)

How is the fo lding 'hinge' on your folding stock Rbick since I have an old Choate on anoth er rifle that is not 100% steady wh e n
shouldered ?
Its holding up well. Thus far I havn't had too m uch problem with it.
but I've researched them now for quite som e tim e a n d I ' m anticipating to buy one of these little wonders m yself
I would defin itely recomm end it. It is a good choice, especially for people just getting into the sport, or are low on cash, like
m yself :o
sporad1c April 6th, 2008, 04:11 PM

I h a v e a s a v a g e m o d e l 9 3 l e f t - h a n d e d 1 7 h m r. It has a 20" bull barrel and a 5 round deta chable m a g a z i n e . I p u t a n i k o n
prostaff 3-9x40 scope on it and paired up with a harris bipod, this gun is a nail driver. I bought it about 3 years ago when I
was in the arm y a n d h a v e a b s o l u t e l y n o regrets. Savage makes a great rifle for a great price. My friend in the army had a
s a v a g e i n 7 m m rem m ag that he traded for a yugo dragonov. I can't rem e m ber what the m odel # was But, even though it was
a great trade, whenever I talk to him he still misses that gun.
LibertyOrDeath April 7th, 2008, 06:18 AM

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I've heard some great things about Savage s on several gun boards. Here's another
review:
http://www.snipercentral.com/sav110fp .htm
T h e S a v a g e 1 0 F P i n . 3 0 8 i s s u p p o s e d t o b e a n a w e s o m e r i f l e f o r t h e m o n e y . F o r t h o s e w h o want m ore power/range and don 't

m ind the recoil or shorter barrel life, there's also the 110FP in .3 00 W in Mag. I'm seriously conside ring getting one of these two
m odels myself.
Although I would never part with my semi-autos in calibers like 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39, m y interests are increasing ly shifting
to precision, long-range bolt rifles in m uch m ore powerful calibers. A lot of this ha s to do with SHTF purposes. If I'm trying to
d o d a m a g e t o w e l l - a r m ed guys in very strong body armor who can call in reinforcements a t any tim e, obviously the last thing I
want to do is get within easy range of their own weapons. Better to fire a couple of well-aimed shots from concealm ent at a
long distance and then slink away. For that reason, I think everyone should try to g e t a g o o d l o n g - r a n g e r i f l e , a n d t h e S a v a g e s
should be affordable to most people.
Now, for m y DREAM rifle -- tha t would be the .408 Cheytac! :D Too bad it'll be years before I can afford one. :(
Rbick April 7th, 2008, 06:21 PM

A Cheytac would be nice. Or one of those new .416s tha t Barrett is developing. Apparently it can make an accurate cold bore
shot at 2500 yards :eek: Check out the ballistics at there website here (http://www.barrettrifles.com/am m o _ 4 1 6 . a s p x ) .
At 1,000 yards with only 1.15 second T oF is fricken awesome. .308 and .50 at tha t range is around 1 . 5 s e c o n d s a n d the
velocity has dropped substantially. It looks like they have perfected ballistics with that new .416 round. Packs a huge punch
and shoots flat as hell. Now I just need to find a way to get 6,00 0 dollars to spend on a rifle... Ano ther auto loan perhaps? ;)
For m y next rifle, I plan on moving up on the power a b it as well. Not rea lly sure what yet, but I'm on the lookout fo r a nice
how powered round that is effective past 1,000 yards. Any suggestions?
BlackFalcoN April 7th, 2008, 07:43 PM

Personally, for high precision extra-lon g - r a n g e a n t i - p e r s o n a l s h o t s , I w o u l d g o f o r t h e . 3 3 8 L a p u a M a g n u m ( 8 . 6 0 x 7 0 m m ) .
This round was specifically developed by snipers, for snipers and is one of the m ost precise calibers by design. It's effective
r a n g e i s s o m ewhere between 1.600 an d 1.800 yards.
It has less kinetic energy than the .50 BMG, bu t due to it's low-drag bullet design, it has alm ost the same ballistic trajectory
than the .50BMG.
Also, a weapon in .33 8 Lapua is still very mana g e a b l e a n d m ovable by 1 person, where as m ost rifles in .50 BMG are very
cumbersome .
If you are interested in a gun that fires the .338, look into the Accuracy International AWSM. It is currently in use by US
Rangers, Navy Seals, Special Air Service, Germ an forces, the UK, Norway and othe rs + used by various law enforcement
agencies & special forces across Europe. At 500 0$ it is somewhat expensive.
Alternatively, the Sako TRG 42 in .338 Lapua is another great gun that has many users in the long range p recision shooting
c o m m unity. It retails at 3900$
EDIT: Here (http://demigodllc.com/photo/TR G42AWSM/?m e d i u m =D100_3955_img.jpg) is an image that shows both guns
compared.
LibertyOrDeath April 8th, 2008, 04:27 AM

Y e a h , i t ' s h a r d t o b e a t a . 3 3 8 L a p u a . I ' v e b e e n eyeballing Armalite's AR-30 in .338 for a while now. It's less expensive than
just about any other rifle I've seen in that caliber and is supposed to be very accurate. Also, it's nicely portable at only 12
p o u n d s , a n d i t s m u z z l e b r a k e i s s u p p o s e d t o t a m e recoil am azingly well. The downside is that you pay for the latter with
deafening muzzle blast, so you probably want to wear d ouble hearing protection at the range (plugs under muffs).
Another drawback is that there's no AP am mo available for the .338 that I'm aware of, and that's something I put a pretty high
e m p h a s i s o n because of worries about future developments in b ody armor. (Gran ted, it would take som e p r e t t y d a m n h e a v y
body arm or just to prevent serious blunt trauma from a .338LM.) A couple of com p a n i e s m ake monolithic solid bullets in .338,
but I haven't seen any that were spitzer-shaped, which I assum e would be ideal for long-distance accuracy and penetration.
Both the .416 Barrett and the .408 Cheytac use m onolithic solid spitzers as the standard bullet. Th e h o m o g e n e i t y p r e s u m a b ly
g i v e s o p t i m u m accuracy, but you also get m uch better penetration than from standard jacketed lead bullets. In a PDF on their
website, Cheytac claims its standard (i.e., non-AP) .408 round is a more efficient penetrator of 0.5" steel at 650 yards than .50
BMG AP! Basically, they say that if a .408 won't penetrate your target, you'll need something like an anti-tank round to do so. I
im agine the .416 is com parab le to the .408.
Too bad rifles in .408 Cheytac and .416 Barrett are on the heavy side -- about 25 lbs, give or take . And then there are those
prices! :eek:
Apart from these m onster calibers, a g reat next step up from the .308 m ight just be som e t h i n g i n a . 3 0 0 M a g n u m : . 3 0 0 W in
M a g , . 3 0 0 R e m Ultra Mag, .300 Rem SAUM, .300 Weatherby Mag, etc. All are like ly to have punish ing recoil without a m u z z l e
brake, but it's not like these are the kind of rifles you're supposed to shoot all day long. Any of them is easily capable of
1000-yard shooting. Best of all, you can load surplus .308-cal AP bullets or solid brass spitzers (http://www.barnesbullets.com /
products/rifle/banded -solids/) (not just the flat-nosed b ullets) into these cartridges.
Here is an im age that shows both guns com p a r e d . D a m n , t h o s e l o o k s e x y .

If you are interested in a gun that fires the .338, look into the Accuracy International AWSM
O u r s n i p e r t e a m ( 2 / 7 5 t h R a n g e r R e g i m e n t ) u s e d t h i s m odel in Afghanistan and Iraq. They had it in a .300 win m ag caliber

however. BTW, I had to go change my underwe ar after looking at that picture... m m m m m, guns...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Rifles and Shotguns > AR variants Solidworks Mod els
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HIM June 5th, 2008, 09:21 AM

R a n a c r o s s a great site with tutorials and Solidworks mo dels of AR's and several other various caliber AR's. There is also lots of
other prints for various firearm s.
http://www.cncguns.com/
Sorry, this was m entioned in another p ost, http://www.roguesci.o rg/theforum/showthread.php?t=51 6 0
generallisimo July 27th, 20 08, 03:0 2 AM

Fantastic link. Just what I was looking for and at the right tim e.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Rifles and Shotguns > Remington 7600 pump rifle and lever action shotgun.
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Red Beret July 23rd, 2008, 08:34 AM

As some may have noticed, I am from australia. Here, we can't have auto loading rifles, or shotties, or anything with a mag capacity of more than 10 rounds.
Which is why I need opinions on the remington 7600 pump action rifle, and the lever action 12ga. They are the closest thing we can have to a semi-or fully automatic gun.
In respect to the Pump rifle;

Is it a solid reliable arm? I'm looking at .223 because it's cheap here and low recoil should allow more accurate follow up shots. On the other hand I'm a big fan of the .308win
(7.62 NATO) for its accuracy and greater stopping power.
I will be buying a few mags with this too.
As for the lever action 12ga;

Has anyone tried one? Are they durable enough to run buckshot and heavy loads in? Is the action as strong as the advertisments say?
Thanks in advance.
SafetyLast July 25th, 2008, 05:44 PM

Australian gun laws are a horrible affair.
I used to own a remington 7400, in 30-06. They're along the same lines as the 7600 except semiauto. Unreliable and minute-of-watermelon accuracy. Not too sure if the 7600
would be any more accurate, but it's a pump gun so reliability shouldn't be a problem.
I've always wanted a cut down Winchester lever action shotty like Ah-nold in T2. Norinco makes a copy that's reasonably priced check that one out.
Vitalis July 28th, 2008, 02:17 AM

I have a Remington 7600 in 30-06, received as a gift. I must admit I haven't done all that much with it; I've fired maybe 50 rounds through it. It's reliable and for me, as
accurate as one could expect from the iron sights it came with. I just bought a scope for it so when I have some extra time I'll see how accurate it can really be.
I didn't get a manual with it and for me it is time consuming to strip it down and clean/maintain it, but so far it seems pretty solid. That's all the info I can share right now, I've
no experience with the .223.
SafetyLast July 28th, 2008, 01:23 PM

A few more things about the 7400 and 7600 rifles is that they have thin barrels and overheat quickly. My 7400 would get extremely hot after about 20 rounds and I would
need to let it cool down for about 1/2 hour because the groups would open up a ridiculous amount. This may be different for the .223 however. And the mag release is
absolutely crap, it's just a tiny nub that you have to push just right to get the mag out.
They are almost impossible to fully strip down because of the design of the receiver and the trigger has a needlessly heavy pull. The guns are what I would call 180 degrees
from being "tactical".
Can you get the 7615 in Aus? It looks really dumb, but the AR mags cost about half of what the factory mags go for. (If it seems dumb but works it's not dumb) Not sure if
they changed the mag release on that one or not.
Red Beret July 29th, 2008, 11:18 PM

Yeah we can get the 7615, was looking at that as I can get cheap .223 ammo, $8 for 20rnds. I guess I'm looking for a rifle that "could" be used as a home defence gun, or a
gun to carry in your car to protect against rioting mobs. In a type of civil disaster type situation.
Would you go .223, and sacrifice the 7.62's stopping power for low recoil and quicker follow ups?
Alexires August 4th, 2008, 02:20 AM

Red Beret - In the case of civil emergency to such a scale that the army gets called out? Yes.
5.56 ammo will be lying around if the army gets called out and the rioters take some of them down (the situation where you probably need a weapon).
Assuming you are in a city, you probably wouldn't be engaging targets past 400m so you probably wouldn't need a 7.62's range. Don't know about stopping power though,
can't really say one way or the other.
I'd go .223/5.56 personally, for the sake of ease of carry, amount of ammo, quicker shots (possibly important in a mob situation).
Then again, if army is called and they are getting taken down, then there would be stuff a lot better than 7615 lying around.....
Code Red August 5th, 2008, 08:42 AM

5.56 ammo will be lying around if the army gets called out and the rioters take some of them down (the situation where you probably need a weapon).
I'd go .223/5.56 personally, for the sake of ease of carry, amount of ammo, quicker shots (possibly important in a mob situation).
I think using 5.56 NATO ball ammunition in place of commercial .223 Remington isn't a good idea, as mentioned here:
http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html
Personally, if a bad situation was to ever break out, I'd be most comfortable with 2 pistols and a shotgun, if that was all I get could legally.
One semi-automatic for rapid fire needs, and one high calibre revolver for when the semi-auto jams or plays up.
The 12 gauge shotgun is the best crowd dispersing firearm ever made, when in an urban situation.
Close quarters combat, you can't beat the shotgun and pistol combination.
You won't need the centrefire rifle as you don't care for sniping people, you just need to move quickly and live.
Of course, ideal weapons would be the H&K MP-5, AK-47, M-16, etc etc, but I'm only talking about what Red Beret could obtain legally in Australia.
SafetyLast August 5th, 2008, 01:10 PM

You really can't beat a shotgun for personal protection/home defense.
the ammo is going to be a bit more expensive, but you probably won't shoot it as much as a rifle. I usually shoot about 25
rounds or so of 12ga per range session opposed to 70-100rds for .223.
I had a mishap about a year ago with my bushmaster AR and some bad lake city surplus ammo, ss109 green tips, probably more
than a decade old. The primer pushed the bullet about halfway down the tube where it was securely lodged and had to be
knocked out with a rod. The powder failed to ignite probably due to moisture from improper storage.
It was a bit of a scary situation and luckily I didn't fire off another round after manually ejecting the case.
Another thing I dislike about the remy's is that the bolt hold open is on the magazine which makes it a bit awkward to carry around. (Range officers becoming confused and the
like)
Cobalt.45 August 9th, 2008, 08:11 AM

While no one will dispute that there are differences between the chambers for the 5.56 NATO and the .223 Rem, I feel there's a certain amount of "conflict of interest" in that
SAMMI is in the biz of promoting "sporting arms and ammo manufacturers".
I also believe the idea that the difference between 50K and 60K CUP will cause an imminent failure to be a bit over stated-
Quote from the Gun Zone site: "Additionally, SAAMI's Unsafe Arms and Ammunition Combinations Technical Data Sheet page states:
The .223 Remington is rated for a maximum of 50,000 CUP while the 5.56mm is rated for 60,000 CUP. That extra 10,000 CUP is likely sufficient to cause a failure in a
chamber that's only rated for the "sporting" .223 Remington." (bold italics mine)
If this were in fact a problem of the magnitude that SAMMI states, I think there would be a whole lot of failures from hot reloads as well as from using 5.56 ammo. I know of
no such rash of failures.
Demand for 5.56 ammo remains high and one can only assume that not all of it is being shot from "NATO" chambers.
I would suggest that the rifle be "listened to". Any sign of primers showing excessive pressure for instance, should be fair warning. Use your own best judgement and if unsure,
err on the side of safety.
m700m September 30th, 2008, 07:00 PM

you can easely open the chamber to 5.56, and use both .223, and 5.56x45,/5.56 nato. all you would need is an carbide chamber cutter, as the Rem has no chrome in the
chamber, or bore.
Cobalt.45 September 30th, 2008, 08:06 PM

open the chamber to 5.56, and use both .223, and 5.56x45,/5.56 nato.So, you're saying it's "OK" to shoot NATO from a 5.56 chamber (but presumably not vice versa)?

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Fingerless December 13th, 2001, 04:03 PM

nbk2000 December 14th, 2001, 05:23 AM

5+1 rounds of .50 goodness. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Oh, and a $7,000 http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif price tag.

Boy, talk about serious temptation for snatch and dash!

And you're not the only one looking at these....

What's next, Quad Fifties? Mini-Guns? Vulcan Cannons? http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

phyrelord December 14th, 2001, 10:41 PM

MacCleod December 15th, 2001, 02:37 AM

nbk2000 December 15th, 2001, 03:21 AM

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

MacCleod December 15th, 2001, 03:36 AM

Fingerless December 15th, 2001, 09:33 AM

Fingerless December 15th, 2001, 09:44 AM

HMTD Factory December 15th, 2001, 12:12 PM

Here's why they are outta business now.

There's no use registering guns neither, when

HMTD Factory December 15th, 2001, 01:28 PM

nbk2000 December 15th, 2001, 04:53 PM

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

BoB- December 15th, 2001, 07:46 PM

the finished "rifle" would probably weigh over 100 pounds.

The plans probably call for a commericially made barell.

MacCleod December 16th, 2001, 06:10 AM

nbk2000 December 16th, 2001, 06:57 AM

LOOK OUT! REDNECKS GOT A GUN!! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

Anyways, I found this thread at TFL.

Cops can't find super gun

William Kaempffer, Register staff December 13, 2001

Here, it is illegal for civilians to possess the weapon, police said.

Convict: What you in here for?

You: Shoplifting some batteries.

Convict: Why haven't you bailed out?

You: It's $2.6 million, cash.

That'd make for interesting conversation, huh? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

HMTD Factory December 16th, 2001, 12:30 PM

HMTD Factory December 16th, 2001, 01:08 PM

MacCleod December 16th, 2001, 02:21 PM

TRUTHSEEKER November 15th, 2003, 01:32 AM

MP5Guy November 15th, 2003, 02:46 PM

Spartin13 November 17th, 2003, 09:55 PM

DropNazi November 25th, 2003, 05:07 AM

majes December 17th, 2003, 12:37 AM

Dave the Rave December 17th, 2003, 11:38 AM

Third_Rail December 18th, 2003, 02:31 PM

They'd make my upcoming Barrett M99-1 ever so much more fun.

xyz December 22nd, 2003, 12:31 AM

Mike76251 December 29th, 2003, 02:10 AM

SMAG 12B/E5 December 30th, 2003, 03:58 AM

12Gauge December 30th, 2003, 06:54 PM

MightyQuinn March 8th, 2004, 06:13 PM

zaibatsu March 8th, 2004, 08:34 PM

MP5Guy March 8th, 2004, 11:28 PM

Cyclo_Knight March 23rd, 2004, 11:04 PM