2017-0132239 Person Interviewed: Officer Joshua Lippert Complaint #: 2017-0132239 Date of Interview: February 13, 2017 Detectives: Danny Satterfield and Chuck Rutzky Transcribed by: Elizabeth J. Handy Date Transcribed: February 18, 2017 Beginning of Interview: Rutzky. Okay. I'm Chuck Rutzky. I'ma sergeant with Cold Case. This is — HlJet Danny introduce himself. Satterfield: Today's date is 2/13/2017. I've got 1509 hours or 3:09 p.m. by my watch. This is an interview that relates to complaint number 2017-0132239. A follow-up interview with Officer Joshua Lippert and with his attomey Mr. John Brown. Doing the interviewing will be Detective Danny Satterfield and Sergeant Charles Rutzky of the Homicide/Cold Case Unit. Chuck? Rutzky: And just to make it clear why we're here again. | appreciate you coming in. It's continuation of the same criminal investigation that you participated in the other day. We understand that you've had the opportunity to view video that's been released of the incident. And our hope is that your recollection after seeing that video has increased and maybe there's things that you saw in the video that weren't explained in the first interview, and we hope to just get clarification from ~ from that first interview and go through it. We have the video here that welll be able to go through and get your -- what you saw, what your perception was at certain points during — during that incident. I's - Il let Danny kind of start off. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC2017-0132239 Satterfield: Let's just start off this way. You have viewed the video; is that correct? Lippert Yes, sir Satterfield: Did you recall some things after seeing the video that we didn't ~ that you didn't recall in the initial interview? Lippert: Yeah. After ~ after reviewing the tape, | mean obviously there's things that | didn't recall immediately after, you know, certain small details that — that | recall as a result. Satterfield: Okay. Is it best just to go ahead and start from the very beginning again and -- and give us the information and ~ that you recall included in that now? Lippert: I guess so. Satterfield: Okay. So do you want to start then that you were working that area Lippert: Uh-huh. Satterfield: ~ and saw a vehicle run the stop sign. Lippert: | saw the vehicle run the stop sign coming out of what we call the new lot, empties out onto South 6th right near the South 6th Summer intersection. Didn't - - I didn't get a look at the driver. | didn't get a look at how many people were in the car. All Crime Tape Transcription, LLC2017-0132239 | could see was basically an empty window. The persons, whoever was in the vehicle, was sitting so far back behind the B pillar that | ~ | couldn't tell how many times it was occupied or anything. That vehicle --| pull out. | then get in behind that vehicle as it's parked now in a handicapped parking spot right near South - South 6th and Summer. | get out with the — the occupant of the vehicle who is now exiting the vehicle. Same — same thing as last time, you know, "Hey, man, just step back in the car for me." He kind of gives me that, head nod. And, you know, from reviewing the tape | now know that — or now recall that he charged me then and there. | didn't really recall that at the time, you know, with everything that was going on. You know, it happened so fast. Satterfield: Right. But you recall after seeing that, that there was a physical confrontation — Lippert: Yeah. Satterfield: —at your car? Lippert: Yeah. Satterfield Can you describe that (incomprehensible) now? Lippert: After reviewing the - once again, after reviewing the tape, | mean he just — he just kind of makes a beeline and body checks me. And then from there, he goes across the parking lot over back towards the walkway or that - that --| think the silver vehicle at the end of the -- the opposite end of the parking lot from (incomprehensible). Crime Tape Transcription, LLC2017-0132239 Satterfield: This is when he took off running? Lippert: Yeah. This is when he runs ~ Satterfield: (Incomprehensible.) Lippert: in front of | guess the main office which is — you know, caught the ~ the bulk of it. Satterfield: Before we go any further, you — you desoribed what he did to you when he rushed you and the body check. He actually made contact with you, physical contact with you? Lippert: Uh-huh. Satterfield: What -- can you describe what you're describing, calling a body check? Do you recall exactly what it was? Lippert: | mean he just kind of put his shoulder into mine. Satterfield: Okay. Lippert: And then, you know, from there he went off running across the parking lot — Satterfield: Okay. Lippert: ~ in the opposite direction from where we were. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC2017-0132239 Satterfield: Right. Okay. Okay. So he just ~ | don't know how to word it either - - kind of threw his shoulder into you and pushed you backwards or — Lippert: Yeah. Satterfield: ~ (incomprehensible)? Lippert: Yeah Satterfield: Okay. Go ahead from there. And then foot pursuit. Lippert: Foot pursuit goes out. And like | stated the first time we spoke, when he exited the vehicle, you know, | saw him reach down and adjust something in his waistband. It wasn't like a hey, I'm about to run so | pull my pants up, it was a ~ it was an object in his waistband or something right in this area that he was wanting to ~-to secure, make sure it didn't move around. At that point, you know, I'm concemed it may be a pistol based on, you know, my training and experience. Satterfield: Uh-huh. Lippert So because of that, you know, | ~ I had my hand up around this area. | was, you know, fixing to put the traffic stop out. And then when he starts moving towards me, he's noncompliant with — with my request to get back in the vehicle, | kind of pulled down because now I'm worried hands up near his waistband and now he's coming at me. So from there, it just - you know, it's just when he comes up, body checks me, and then runs off across the parking lot towards the other end of the parking lot from where we were. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC2017-0132239 Rutzky: Do you mention commands at that point? Lippert: Yeah. || ~and by command, | mean, "Hey, buddy, just have a seat in the car for me," and then he ~ like I say, he just kind of gives me that and then it's on. You know, it wasn't a ~ you know, hey, have a seat in the car. You know, | was trying to downplay the encounter. You know, just — i's just a routine traffic stop. Hey, man, just have a seat in the car for me, I'l be right with you. Something -- something along those lines and he never said a word. He just (snapping fingers) right at me. Rutzky: Okay. Satterfield: And | think what Sergeant Rutzky, too, is asking you is as you're foot pursuing — pursuing him on foot, were you yelling to him to stop? Lippert: Yeah Satterfield: Any commands there? Lippert: Yeah. Satterfield: So I think he's asking you if there were any ~ Lippert Oh. Satterfield: ~ if you were giving him commands at that point. Lippert: At that point we're running. | -~ don't specifically recall if | did or did Crime Tape Transcription, LLC2017-0132239 not say stop, police, or anything like that. I mean I'm a uniformed police officer in a Flex car. If he's ~ anybody's familiar with that area, everybody knows what the Flex cars are. | mean there's no doubt that he knows I'm a police officer. Satterfield: And that's the other thing we've got to be clear on, too. You're in full uniform, Lippert: Iwas. Satterfield: Right, Lippert: Its a full Flex uniform, yes. Satterfield: And you — you stated you were driving a Flex car, which is an unmarked car — Lippert: Yes Satterfield: ~ per se ~- and I (incomprehensible) we covered this the other night, but stil equipped with the blue lights and so forth Lippert: Blue lights and the (incomprehensible) spotlight. | mean it's obvious that i's a police car. Satterfield: Right. Lippert: You know, blue lights and emergency equipment were activated. | mean there's no doubt that he knew it was a traffic stop. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC2017-0132239 Satterfield: Right. Okay. So where the foot pursuit thing (incomprehensible) parking lot. Lippert We go down the parking lot and like | stated before, he tries to kind of duck me or kind of juke me, you know, trying to fake me out that he's going one way and then he tries to go another. That's when I'm able to ~ to physically to get my hands on him. You know, he goes to the ground. And at that point, | ~ I draw my taser. You can clearly see in the video | go across my body. It complies with — with department polioy. Taser has got to be on my non-dominant hand side. | deploy my taser and | ~| tell him — you know, | give him a command, you know, "Hey, stop.” You know, "Don't resist." You know, something along those lines. ! know I gave him a command at this point and he doesn't ~ he obviously doesn't comply. He gets up and gets to his feet. When — when we went to the ground | know my pair of sunglasses ~ my good pair of sunglasses goes flying. | - I see his hat. | see his cell phone and (incomprehensible) hear that clank. Satterfield: Okay. One thing | want to be clear on here is you said you deployed the taser. Lippert Satterfield: (incomprehensible) one thing to me (incomprehensible). Lippert: Drew my taser. | drew my taser. Satterfield Okay. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC2017-0132239 Lippert It came out of my holster. Satterfield Did you activate the taser? Lippert I did not Satterfield Okay. Okay. And that was when he was refusing to obey your commands at that point? Lippert: Yes. And then from there, he gets to his feet. I know he goes to the ground another time. | don't-- | don't specifically recall that. 1 mean | see it in the tape, but | don't specifically recall that. But the next thing that | 100 percent recall is he ~ he reaches down for that pistol and picks it up. And at this point, "Hey, don't do it, Don't do it” Satterfield: Okay. | think we skipped over that. When you're down there, at the end other end of the parking lot ~ Lippert: Ub-huh. Satterfield: — and ~ and once again a physical confrontation, is that right? Lippert Yes. Yes. Satterfield: When the — when did the pistol come into play? Lippert: | ~ I know the pistol comes out at that point. | don't recall him picking it up at that point, to be 100 percent honest. | mean | know it's out. I know | heard Crime Tape Transcription, LLC10 2017-0132239 it hit the pavement, but I don't specifically remember seeing him pick it up at that point. Rutzky: When did you first see the pistol? Lippert: The - the first time that | remember seeing the pistol is when he picks it up and begins to face me. Rutzky: So you saw it on the ground? Lippert Yes. And | specifically said, "Don't — don't grab that. Don't do this, man, Don't do this." And that's when he picks it up. | remember it very distinctly. It's a silver revolver pistol with a black grip. And, you know, somewhere in there, | put my taser back up and -- and draw my ~ my weapon, my department-issued weapon. And he starts coming up and that's when it - you know, it sinks in that he's fixing to kill me. You know, we make eye contact and I -- | can just - | can just tell. Satterfield: Now, did you see the pistol when it -- the first time you saw the pistol was on the ground in the parking lot. Lippert: Yes, sir. Satterfield: Did you see where it came from as in did it fall from his waistband or ou just — the first time you noticed it when you heard it actually (incomprehensible)? Lippert: The first time that ~ that | knew there was a pistol was when I heard it skidding across the pavement. I mean it's a distinct sound. Satterfield: Right. Crime Tape Transcription, LLG"1 2017-0132239 Lippert: ‘And the first time | visually observed the pistol was when he ultimately reached for it and began turning towards me Satterfield Do you recall that happening twice? Lippert: 1—I don't specifically recall it happening twice. | watched the tape and | know that -- that he goes to the ground another time after | have a hold of his hoodie. | know he goes to the ground again and | know that that's when I kick at something or kick at the pistol, but like | said, | mean this thing happened real fast and I'm doing the best | can. But I'm not trying to put words in there. I'm not trying to — to work in anything into the story. | ~1 know | specifically remember him picking it up and — and starting to turn towards me and the pistol coming up. But | ~ | do not recall the first time he picks it up. | know he does but — Satterfield: Okay. You do not recall the pistol being on the ground twice and him picking it up twice; is that what you're saying? Lippert: | do not specifically. | recall one time but not — not — | guess — Satterfield: Okay. Lippert: ~ that! be the first time. Satterfield: Okay. Lippert: (Incomprehensible.) Crime Tape Transcription, LLC12 2017-0132239 Satterfield: ‘And that one time was when you tried to get to it first by way of ~ you told us you tried to kick it. Lippert Honestly, le | said, 'm not trying to put words into the story or make anything fit, | remember Kicking at the pistol. | don't recall if i's the first time when he reaches for it or the second time. | know I kicked at the pistol at one point. Satterfield: And -- and make sure I'm clear on this. It would have to be the one and only time that you saw him pick up the pistol; is that correct? You don't see it twice on the ground? Lippert: Like | said, !'m — I'm not ~ I'm not trying to put — try to make it fit the video. | remember kicking at the pistol and then | — and then | remember him picking it up. | don't believe that those are the same things. | believe it's twice, but I'm not 100 percent sure that it's not the same one. You understand what | mean? Satterfield: |'m not sure I'm not confusing myself, but you remember the pistol being on the ground one time and him picking it up one time. Lippert: Specifically one time, yes. Satterfield: Okay. Okay. Allright. Then - okay, he picks the pistol up and let's go from there then. Lippert At that point he - he starts turning towards me and | -- I take aim. And in that moment of, you know, that - that, he ~ he's fixing to shoot me. And in that moment, you know, that | press the trigger. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC13 2017-0132239 Satterfield: Okay. Describe then when he picks the pistol up ~ Lippert: Uh-huh, Satterfield ~- was he standing up and bends over and gets the pistol? Was he on the ground, reaches and picks the pistol up? Lippert: He -- he's on his feet when he picks it up and he starts turning towards me. Satterfield: Okay. What ~ and I'm looking, | think, to know how, where you were, where he was, your body positions and exactly what you saw him doing when he picks the pistol up. So he wasn't seated on the ground. He wasn't laying on the — none of that when he (incomprehensible) pistol. Lippert: ‘When -- when I recall him reaching down and grabbing the pistol, he was on his feet ~ Satterfield: Okay. Lippert, -- at this point and that's when he starts turning. And that's when, you know, for me, it's -- it's without a question, he's — he's a threat and — and | need to address it as a — as a lethal threat. And then from there ~ Satterfield: Okay. Lippert ~ | pull the trigger. Grime Tape Transcription, LLC14 2017-0132239 Satterfield ‘And | think you ~ you said that he started turing towards you — Lippert: Yeah. Satterfield: ~- with the pistol in his hand Lippert: Yes. Satterfield: Okay. Can you describe then how — what his body position was when he starting turing and how that — how that came to be? Lippert: He — I'm not a scientist and | know that, you know, for every input ~ you know, every action there's a reaction. That the only thing that I can think of is as | draw my weapon, he starts to turn to get away from me. That's the only thing that | can think of. Because | know when | came up on ~ on target, | know he's facing me. And — and from in that instance, from the ~- you know, the neurons are -- or whatever, he ~ he starts ~ he begins to react to me pointing the pistol -- my pistol at him as I'm firing, Satterfield: You described to us in the initial interview about making direct eye contact with him. Lippert: Yes. Satterfield: Can you describe that again, you recall that? Lippert: As | stated — | believe | stated before we make eye contact as - as he's picking up the pistol. 1 mean he — I'm looking at him and he's looking at me. At this point, you know, | don't know if he's looking back to see where | am or what, but | look him Crime Tape Transcription, LLC15 2017-0132239 in the eye and | see that look. I'm not trying to speak bad of the man by any means, but that kind of comered animal, like it's me or you look in his eye. And like | said, for me, that's ~ that's when it clicks. That's ~ that's when | know that this is going. This is he's a lethal threat to me at this point. I mean I've chased people with pistols in their hands before and they're running away from me. | --I never felt that there was necessary. I've had incidents where I've (incomprehensible) use of lethal force before. This one was different. Okay. |— Satterfield: Can you describe how you feel it was different? Lippert: It— it's ~ | guess it was like a light switch. | - I don't know how to better describe it. You know, I'm -- | tried to de-escalate the situation. He's picking up a pistol. I'm telling him not to. | mean he he could just run witht. Just run. And —and obviously for me, in that instance, he could just run away. He has other options other than to pick up that pistol and start to face me. And for me it ~ it's like a light switch. You know, | fee! like my life is (incomprehensible) imminent fear that if | don't get -- if | don't get a shot off, he'd shoot me. And — and | have no doubt in my mind that | did everything | could to try to de-escalate this. You know, | tried to disarm him. | tried to — | know I did everything that | could to prevent this from going to a lethal situation. But once | was confronted with a lethal threat, | did what | had to do. And - and I'm —and I'm sorry and I feel, you know, terrible and | mourn the loss of this man. It's at my hands; | know that. But he was a lethal threat to me. And without a doubt I'm telling you, if I didn't do what I did, you'd be burying me Rutzky; When ~ jump back alittle bit. And welll - we'll take a look at the video so it's clear, but you said you -- at which point did you — did you bring out your taser? Crime Tape Transcription, LLCSoearvoaanan WW 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 2017-0132239 7 Lippert: When we were at the back of the silver vehicle, at the end of the road, that's -- that's when I - when | drew my taser. 1-1 mean, he had ~ at that point, he's ~ he's running. You know, he body checked me. He hasn't presented a lethal threat to me at this point. You know, so, you know, | ~ | drew my taser because | felt my — a taser being an appropriate response to his level of force. You know, I - I don't draw my pistol until he grabs his pistol. And | know that action is ~ is - is faster than reaction and I wasn't going to wait for him to draw and get a beat on me. |--|~ Rutzky: Do you think you could have used your taser at that point? Lippert: No. Idon't think | could have used it Rutzky: I mean explain to us. Lippert Tasers aren't always effective on people, point blank and period ‘And even if | tased him and he has that pistol in his hand and his body locks up, he can pull that trigger stil Rutzky: That was -~- you had the taser out before though, right? Lippert had the taser out before he picked up the pistol. Rutzky: Right, Lippert: Okay? That was in my mind appropriate for his level of force. Now, when he reached for the pistol, that changes the game. When he presents a pistol and starts coming around in my direction with that pistol, that's not a taser situation. My life is, on the line and -- and — Crime Tape Transcription, LLC17 2017-0132239 Rutzky: ‘What I'm trying to ask is was there a reason why you didn't taser him right then — Lippert Idon't — I don't know. Rutzky: ~ for what you were feeling at that point? Lippert At this — are -- are you referring to the back of the vehicle? Rutzky. When you - when you had your ~- pulled your taser out and — Lippert: | was trying fo use the minimal force possible. Rutzky: Right. Lippert: You know, if | didn't have to tase him, | didn't want to tase him. If he would comply with commands and would have rolled over on his stomach, put his hands behind his back, | would have put it up and went hands on and use the least --'m trying to use the least ~ least amount of force as possible to affect this arrest. Rutzky: And so ~ and so when you pull the taser out, kind of walk me through that. How —- what — what you said or what happened at that point? Lippert When he goes to the ground and ~ at the back of that car, and | draw my taser and | point my taser at him, and he's on the ground facing me and | give him verbal commands to just lay on the ground, put his hands behind his back, and he doesn't do that, He gets up and starts running. And he's running for the pistol. He's Grime Tape Transcription, LLCSocarvoarnan 1 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 18 2017-0132239 running in the direction of the pistol. At that point, | don't know exactly when, | put my taser up after that. But he's moving away from me, He's moving toward the lethal object. And | put my taser up because a taser, in — in my training and in my mind, if he's going for a lethal weapon, I need to get mine out. | need to protect myself. You know, | - 1 ~ | feel like | did everything | could to use the minimal force possible this entire time and I'm sorry that -- that it went from verbal commands all the way through. And | don't wish it on anybody, Rutzky. Well, | just wanted ~ Lippert: I know. Rutzky: The ~ the only part | was clearing ~ and I'm going through each level. Lippert Iknow. Rutzky: ‘And | just want - because, you know, obviously, if the taser was out, | just want to be clear — Lippert: Yeah. Rutzky. ~ of your perception at that point and why it wasn't deployed. Lippert: | know | — he's not complied to my verbal commands. He starts making a movement towards the pistol. And at that point he's -- he's escalating it past the point where | believe a taser is applicable. He's going for a lethal instrument and my first Teaction is to get -- to get mine out. I'm — I'm matching his level. I'm not drawing my pistol Crime Tape Transcription, LLC2017-0132239 early. You know, | didn't ~ | didn't point a pistol at him, you know, at the back of the car, you know, after he's already, you know, body checked me, and ~ and obviously he's ~ he's struggling with me. | didn't pull my pistol then because it wasn't appropriate. You know, based on my training, you know, at Bob Allen and Greg Lee, you know, Joe ~ and Joe Shelton (phonetic) and -- they were all my training instructors and they ~ they'd beat it into our heads the minimal force necessary. So when he's on his back and | have my taser on him and I'm giving him commands, to me that ~ that is an appropriate use of force. But once he starts moving back towards that pistol, he upped it; not me. My ~ my pistol never came out until he had his hand on his. Rutzky. Do you remember what your commands were at that point? Lippert: "Hey, man" - I~ | don't know specifics. Rutzky: Yeah, that's ~ and | don't want to know what you generally say or things like that, Lippert: Yeah. Yeah. Rutzky: | mean if - | want -- I want to know if you remember specifically what you might have told him while he's on the ground, Lippert The only specific commands that | -- that | one hundred percent recall is, "Don't do it. Don't - don't reach for that. Stop. You know, please don't do this.” | ~ | know it was those lines. It may not be verbatim, but I know | told him to stop, don't ~ don't pick the gun up. Put the gun down, Put the gun down, And at that point, he starts coming at me with it or come ~ coming in my direction with i Crime Tape Transcription, LLC20 2017-0132239 Rutzky. So he gets up. He goes to— and then he's ~ he's getting the gun. | want to understand. He grabbed — which hand, first of all? Lippert He grabbed it with his right hand. Rutzky: Right hand. And he was -- where was he moving at that point? Was he ~ explain turning or kind of ~ Lippert: (incomprehensible.) Rutzky: ~ (incomprehensible), Lippert: From my recollection when — when — when he grabs the pistol, he's ~ he's kind of -- he's kind of bladed, you know, face ~ facing away from me. He picks up his right hand and he starts tuming back towards me, Rutzky: So you're describing that he's tuming towards the left? Lippert: Yeah. As I'm looking at him, he starts coming around. His left shoulder's coming this way, back towards my right side. And at that point, | see the pistol The pisto!'s visible and ~ and for me, that ~ that — it’s time to meet that threat. Rutzky: Where was the — the pistol at that point? Lippert: In his hand, Rutzky: And pointed at any certain direction or? Crime Tape Transcription, LLCSearvraaran 1 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 21 2017-0132239 Lippert: !twas in — his body was turing, Itwas coming this way towards me. | see the pistol. | see the barrel of the pistol coming towards me. (incomprehensible) | see the pistol moving. | see the barrel of the pistol coming towards me. Rutzky: Okay. Lippert: ‘And — and — and | make that call, Rutzky: Itwasn't — can you say like was he halfway turned and — the pistol was ~ you said the barrel was coming towards you. And I'm assuming at that point it wasn't pointed at you, it was — Lippert: It hadn't got there yet, but I'm — Rutzky: Itwas swinging in your direction? Lippert: It was coming in my direction, Rutzky: Okay. As as he was turing? Lippert Yes Rutzky; Okay. And then you fired. Lippert: Yes Rutzky; ‘And what happened at that point? Crime Tape Transcription, LLC22 2017-0132239 Lippert: From — from there, | remember he went down between some cars. | don't remember exactly which ones they are, | mean | review the tape, | know which ones they are now. But ike when we did the walkthrough, | didn't remember exactly which ones. It happened — | mean this thing happened fast. And I'm — and I'm doing my best to recall every little detail in my mind and not just for you, but for my own sake in ~ in trying to understand and process what happened. | know he goes down between two cars. Rutzky: Okay. Lippert | see his pistol flop out of his hand, He's on his back. | go in and | secure his pistol and | — and | grab it because he's still moving. He's stilla threat. It's still within reach. So | do the first thing that comes to my mind, | secure the pistol on my person so I know it's not a threat to me anymore. And then | holster up and | start assessing his wounds. Rutzky: Okay. When you said - when he picked it up, was it — how long after he picked it up did he start facing you? Lippert I mean — | mean he was picking it up. It was — it was a motion. It wasn't like he picked it up and then, you know, it~ this whole thing was very fluid and it happened very fast. You know, in my recollection he's ~ he's picking it up and as he's — you know, as he picks it up, he's tuming towards me. Rutzky: Ina clockwise — | guess that'd be counterclockwise, right? Okay. Counterclockwise. Lippert: If | was 6 o'clock and he was 12 o'clock, | guess a generally counter clockwise motion. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC23 2017-0132239 Rutzky: Was — because obviously we can see in the video, he's running away from you from the initial — he ran out, fell, and then he was going back towards, I guess, his vehicle. And then there was the cars where he ultimately fell. At what point did you fire? Was he -- did he pick up that gun — ‘cause ~ i's kind of hard to tell. Did he pick up that gun was it behind that — and we may just be able to look at the video to clarify it, but there's — Lippert: He is not between the vehicles. Rutzky: Not between the vehicles. Lippert: Just not. The ~ the ~ he is off the bumper of the vehicle, not between the vehicles. Rutzky: Okay. And that's when you fire? Lippert: And that's when | fire Rutzky: Okay. Lippert: Because | see the ~ I see the barrel of that pistol, that silver revolver coming towards me, and | address it Rutzky. Do you know where he was when you stop firing? Lippert: He was --| -- I don't believe he was between the cars yet because | know he went to the ground and then he flops over when he's between the cars. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC24 2017-0132239 Rutzky: Do you recall the -- for lack of a better word -- the tempo of your — of your gunfire? Lippert As fast as | can. | mean it's not one, two, wait a second. I's — it's as fast as | physically can do it. You know, and ~- and as soon as | -- he’s no longer a threat, | can't ~ I can't explain it, why | stopped. | just know that at this point | don't believe he's a threat. He's going for cover. And then when | come around the comer and I see the pistol out of his hand, secure it, holster it, start addressing his wounds. | held his hand. looked in his eyes. | asked him to stay with me. | pleaded with him to stay with me. I~ | have no doubt in my mind that | did everything I can to use the minimal amount of force and to de-escalate the situation from - from going to where it was. and to where it ultimately went. Rutzky: If you have anything, the next thing I'd like to do is — is we'll look at the video to make sure that it's accurate, Satterfield And | understand you just described to us about he was turning to his left with the gun in hand and you fired the first round. Lippert: Yes. Satterfield: Okay. What was his body position when you fired your next two rounds? Lippert Honestly -- honestly, I don't know. And | don't want to give you the answer if | don't ~ if 'm not sure. |—| just don't know. | mean | know — | know what my back-stop was. | know it was on -- you know, unmanned vehicles or empty vehicles. But, Crime Tape Transcription, LLC25 2017-0132239 like | said, | mean | remember looking down the barrel and | remember seeing my first my front sight post and being focused on my front sight posts and just the silhouette kind of behind it. And | remember smelling the gunpowder and I remember seeing him hit the ground. Satterfield: Lippert: Satterfield: Lippert: Satterfield: Lippert: Since you brought up the backdrop ~ Yes. -- what was that? It was the vehicles. The vehicles? | 1 didn't see anybody when we ran past. | didn't see anybody in any cars, When we starting going back to him, | didn't see anybody in any of the cars. Satterfield: Lippert: What about the building over there? The parking lot sits kind of like a terrace. It makes up a terrace. | mean | know it's a concrete wall, second story, generally behind me, above the vehicles or past the vehicles. Rutzky: Lippert: Which direction were — were you firing? At~athim. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC26 2017-0132239 Rutzky: ‘And that would have been in relation to — I'm trying to think of the angle of where — you know, what was past him when you were firing? Lippert: (\naudible.) Rutzky: So what - what would you have been aiming, | mean, with the direction of that gunfire, | mean going down the parking lot? Like if | were to try — Lippert (Incomprehensible.) Rutzky: —to find a missing bullet, would it be — Lippert: Itd probably be in a vehicle, in — in the side of a vehicle. Rutzky: Okay. Like down that parking lot, down — Lippert: Right ~ right in one of those two vehicles. Rutzky: Okay. Lippert: | I mean ~|--1 know my back-stop was an empty vehicle. And | -~ and | know that —- that the threat to the window, the second-story windows, were above the threat. Make sense? Rutzky: Yeah. | just - itso when you were firing, it was kind of towards the vehicle? He would have been -- it would have been in the direction, I guess, of the vehicle where he went in between? Crime Tape Transcription, LLC27 2017-0132239 Lippert: | don't know the answer. Like | said, | don't want to say something that I don't know. Rutzky: Okay. Because when you were — I guess you were behind him, were you offset kind of to the left of him as he -- Lippert: Idon't know. All! know is | aimed straight at him. Rutzky: Could you see in all the cars there? Lippert: I mean generally. | mean like | said, when we ran past I remember not seeing anybody. | --| don't remember seeing anybody around until after he's on the ground, pisto’s are secured. Mine's up. An older gentleman peeks out and says, "Hey, does he got dreads?" And I said, "No." And then an old lady pops out of somewhere else, you know, right in my line sight - line of sight between those vehicles as I'm with him. And an old lady comes out and kinds of looking around. | don't think - 1 remember her saying anything. Rutzky: Want to look at the video? Brown: Can | just follow up with something? Rutzky Sure. Brown: | think you brought this out when we gave you earlier a voluntary interview. There were three shots. In about how much length of time did you fire those three shots? Crime Tape Transcription, LLC28 2017-0132239 Lippert: (incomprehensible) as fast as | could. Brown: So are you able to freeze frame where he was at the first shot, the second shot and the third shot? Lippert: No. I mean he's — it's a dynamic situation. He's moving. I don't know — I mean | don't know what his intentions are. | wasn't ~ you know, | can't be in his mind. I don't know. Brown: Thank you Rutzky: This is a zoomed-in clip of a ~ Brown: I've got some glare there. Can we make sure - it's more important for him — Rutzky: Yeah. Brown ~to see it. Rutzky: Yeah. Let me know if — Brown: It's good to me. Rutzky: (incomprehensible) back to the beginning. That's a zoomed-in view of the traffic stop. Anything that you can say about that? Lippert: | mean obviously he --he runs at me. He body checks me there. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC29 2017-0132239 Rutzky: Do you remember that now after seeing it — Lippert: ~ Ido now, yeah. Rutzky: Okay. Lippert: | mean | didn't initially. | mean it’s a pretty traumatic experience. I'm trying to piece it together as best | can. I'm sorry | don't have the whole story. Rutzky: You don't have to apologize, We're just trying to make sure that your side of the story is ~ is known. Okay? And the only way we can do that is ~ is keep asking questions. And that's not meant to — to say that you're lying in any respect or not aware. We just - the only way we can find out is to try to ask as many questions as we can. So we just — Lippert: I know. | know you're just trying to do justice by him. | understand. Rutzky: Now, did you — when he checked you, did you go to the ground or? Lippert I don't — honestly, | don't recall. | mean | think | go back. I don't remember if | go to the ground or not. Rutzky: Do you remember feeling injured or anything as a result of that? Lippert: No. No, not at that point. | mean the adrenaline is on at this point. Rutzky: Okay. Crime Tape Transcription, LLCSeamrvreakRwRN W 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 30 2017-0132239 Lippert: The — the first time | remember feeling any kind of pain was after it was all said and done, | know when | tried to kick that pistol, | was a little too far away. | wish | was closer. And | | remember feeling my ~ my knee kind of start throbbing, right above my knee. That's the first time | felt pain during this (incomprehensible). Rutzky: And its -- i's — obviously it's — i's hard to tell what that is on the video. | think you described it alittle bit again and again. Explain physically how the check work looked. What piece of his body contacted yours or? Lippert: From ~ from the looks of the tape, it looks like his left shoulder impacts my left shoulder. Rutzky: And it's — to me, actually is hard to tell by looking at the tape. I'd like to kind of know from ~ from you, | mean is that you saying from the look of the tape or— Lippert: That's from me saying from the look of the tape. Like | said, | Rutzky: Do you remember? Lippert: | vaguely recall him charging at me. Like | said, | mean there's bits, and pieces missing. | remember some things very well and there's obviously some things that -- that -- that because of the threat or because of how my brain processed the — the situation, I mean, there's definitely holes as far as, you know, what | do and do not remember, but. Rutzky: So do you remember that ~ that check or are you just ~ just telling Grime Tepe Transcription, LLC31 2017-0132239 us what we can already see on the video? Lippert: \~ Ido not specifically remember the check. You know, the only — the only time | even remember it or knew it came into play was after | reviewed the tape. Rutzky: Okay. Lippert: You know, | just -- | remember him getting out of the car, he adjusts his waistband. "Hey, man, just have a seat back in the car for me," and then he starts running at me. That's what | remember, his running at me and me being like okay. Rutzky: So you don't ~ Lippert: | do not specifically remember — Rutzky: Making contact. Lippert: —making the contact. The only reason why I know he made contact with me is because of the tape. Rutzky: Okay. The next one's going to be ~ it's a slow motion view of the — | guess the confrontation at the end of the parking lot where you chase him down the end of the lot and then where you both stop. And then he starts going back the other way. So that's — we can play these over and over again just to — Lippert That's where | draw my taser, obviously, trying to de-escalate it, He's not listening. He's not listening. He -- that's when he tries to go down and get it That's when he comes up and starts facing me. And that’s when | begin to fire was when Crime Tape Transcription, LLC32 2017-0132239 he was facing me. | slice the pie. | see the pistol on the ground. | reach down and recover the pistol. Brown: Can you just ask him to explain slice the pie for anybody who may ~ Rutzky; Sure. (Incomprehensible) slice the pie (incomprehensible)? Lippert: Because he's gone down in an area that | cant see, slicing the pie, | guess, is a tactical term where | slowly start coming around in trying to get at an angle in seeing what's going around there to see if there's a threat. You know, and as | -- basically, | see the pistol's on the ground and | see that there's no longer a threat, and that's when | move in because | know it's safer to move in then, than just running around it. | try to do everything as | can as safely as possible to minimize the amount of force | have to use. Brown: Thanks, Sergeant. | just - somebody may read this that didn't know what that meant. Rutzky: I'l attempt to stop it at certain points so we can — now, this is — Danny, if you'll make note of - of times. What we're looking at is the video from the 10th. This is the building across the parking lot, across the street from the main MDHA office, looking across. What street would this be here? Lippert: South 6th Rutzky; South 6th Street looking into the parking lot. And it indicates 12:55. Would that be about accurate? Lippert honestly have no idea. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC33 2017-0132239 Rutzky: Okay. It's 12:55. 12 o'clock, 55 minutes and 55 seconds here is where he appears to be on the ground. And that's after you chase him through the parking lot. And ~ and at that point you said that -- if we could see -- isn't that the point where the taser is drawn? Lippert That's where | start reaching across my body to my non-dominant side where my department policy requires my taser to be. Rutzky: Okay. Lippert: itis without a doubt my taser. You can see me reach across, Rutzky: Okay. Lippert: He gets up. He's not-- | mean at this point 'd be giving commands Rutzky: And that's 12:55:56 seconds he's getting up. Feel free to say what you're seeing and it would be your recollection. | mean | don't want you to narrate the video, but if - obviously there's — the video's not a continuous play there. There's certain frames within the video. So what I'm hoping is there's things that 'm not catching in the video that you can say this is what was going on here, or where he was moving, or what was going on because there's that ~ I want to make sure that I'm capturing what's in your head as opposed to just what I'm looking at on the video. So that's 57 seconds. He's on his feet. 58 second on his feet. And do you remember what was going on at this point? Lippert: I mean at this point, he's just noncompliant with my commands. Grime Tape Transcription, LLC34 2017-0132239 Rutzky; Okay, Lippert I mean obviously | have the taser drawn. He knows | have the taser drawn and he's still choosing not to obey my commands. Rutzky: Do you remember what you were saying at that point, what your commands were? Lippert: Not specifically. Rutzky: Still 58 seconds and he's moved a couple steps down the parking lot. At 12:56 — Lippert He's reaching down for something, Rutzky: Do you remember seeing anything at that point or hearing anything? Lippert: This ~ this is where | - I remember kicking at -- at the pistol. And like | said, | don't specifically recall (incomprehensible) to explain this. | remember kicking at the pistol, but | ~ but I don't remember if it was a continual — my first recollection | don't recall if i's a continuation of when he actually reaches down and grabs the pistol and he squares up on me. (Inaudible.) | remember kicking at the pistol. Because I remember seeing the pistol on the ground, trying to prevent him from getting it, kick at it, And then | guess separate now from reviewing the tape, (incomprehensible) picks it up at another time. So | mean he's reaching down for a pistol. Rutzky: Do you remember if you made contact with him or if you made contact with anything that you reached out and kicked? Crime Tape Transcription, LLC35 2017-0132239 Lippert: Not that | ~ I know | didn't reach the pistol. And | know I didn't get — get his hand. That's how | remember. Because | remember (incomprehensible) if | had been just been a little closer, | could have knocked it out of there, maybe (incomprehensible). Satterfield: This is 12:56:01. Is there anything you'd like to say about the — the frame or what's going on at that point? Lippert: 1 mean it looks like he's going to the ground. And that's from the surveillance footage. Rutzky: 12:56:02. 12:56:03 appears to get back up on his feet. I'm just — | don't want to narrate this whole thing so feel free to — you know, this is your opportunity to kind of explain what - what's going on or what your thoughts are. Lippert: My ~ my thoughts are --I mean right now he's looking at me. We ~ we're making eye contact and he knows I'm still (incomprehensible). He knows I'm a uniformed police officer. He's already not listening to my commands. I'm sure ~ I'm sure 'm still giving commands. | don't remember specifically what they are. But | mean he's looking back at me. He knows who | am. He knows what I'm trying to do. Rutzky: Is your taser stil out at this point? Lippert: 1 I can't (incomprehensible) Rutzky: You don't remember? Crime Tape Transcription, LLC36 2017-0132239 Lippert: Idon't. He's looking at me. Rutzky: That's 12:56:04. Unknown: Tums his back. Satterfield: Have you fired at this point? Lippert: Honestly, | don't ~ Rutzky: {can pull it continuously. It may ~ that's 12:56:05 he's — Lippert: The frame for frame is kind of - it's hard to ~ | mean he's going down between the cars. I've (inaudible). | mean obviously I've already fired (incomprehensible). Rutzky; ‘And when you were saying that you think that, you know, if we were to try to find a bullet, itd be in a car. That's ~ I guess that's the point I was getting at is the direction you were firing because it's hard to tell where you were standing and exactly where he was. It was if you were firing straight down in the parking lot, or if i's towards the building, or if it was — | guess I'd like for you to explain. Lippert: Basically, | fired - | have fired towards this -- this maroon car. That'd be my back-stop at the point. | mean I don't remember exactly what angle | was ‘standing at, whether it is was (inaudible) degrees, 20 degrees or what, but | — | know I'm seeing my front sight post. He's my target and I know that the car's behind him. Rutzky: Is that something that you remember — Crime Tape Transcription, LLC37 2017-0132239 Lippert: Yes Rutzky: ~ from the way that it occurred? Lippert: | know without a doubt that my back-stop was that vehicle, Rutzky: That's 12:56:06 and he's down in between the cars there. And then, you know, you were explaining slicing the pie. | can see -- Lippert: I'm side-stepping trying ~ trying to peek. Each litle step I take, I'm trying to get an angle to see what he's doing to see if he's still a threat. Rutzky: Okay. And the more you do that, the more you're facing — Lippert: Now — Rutzky: ~ the buildings more or less. Lippert: Yes. Now I'd be facing more towards the building. | am squaring up more towards the building at this point. Rutzky: Okay. But the gunfire was done at that point? Lippert: The gunfire's done. Rutzky: So before you slice the pie, the gunfire was done.38 2017-0132239 Lippert: Shooting's already been done. Rutzky; Ul just play it continuously. At 54 seconds he goes (incomprehensible). I'm sorry, | said I'd play it continuously, but let me - let me pause there. Was there an altercation at that point, do you — Lippert: I mean | have my hands on him, I'm trying to take him into custody. Rutzky: Do you ~ without — again ~ Lippert: Yes. Rutzky: (incomprehensible) video. Do you remember kind of what happened at that point? Lippert: Yeah, | ~ | know ~- | remember - specifically remember that | have my hands on him. Nothing is in my hands and | have my hands on him. And that's without the video. Rutzky: ‘Okay. And what were you attempting to do at that point. Lippert: Iwas trying to use soft empty-hand technique to take him into custody, get him on the ground. You know, try to use the minimal force possible. Rutzky: Okay. Lippert: And — and | think it's — may 1? Crime Tape Transcription, LLC39 2017-0132239 Rutzky: Yeah, yeah, sure. Hit this button, til pause it Lippert Can ~ can you go back frame by frame or? | mean, one thing that | ~ that | know | said in my initial interview that | just — | — | know that | want to be reiterate is this — this gentleman is considerably larger than me. | mean he had, | want to say, at least 50 pounds if not - you know, if not at least two or three inches. | mean he’s -- his size (incomprehensible). Rutzky: What would you estimate his size to be? Lippert 62", maybe 250 give or take. You know, and ~ and he's — and he's a large gentleman. | mean I'm 5'10, 190 pounds maybe 200 if 've eaten a lot the day before. | don't know. But he ~ the first -- one of the first things that | remember ~ noticing about him is he's a large gentleman. And that's -- that's when | see him adjust his waistband. And that's obviously back all the way at the beginning with the initial traffic stop. | just want to reiterate that. Rutzky: Yeah. And if you want to stop the video at any point, just — Lippert: Yeah. | mean there's the physical confrontation. I'm trying to take him into custody, soft empty-hand control. I do not deploy my taser, but | draw my taser, give commands. He's not listening. This is where | -- that's where | — Rutzky: And that's the moment, | guess ~ I don't - it - it looks like he stops at Lippert: I mean if he's — Crime Tapo Transcription, LLC40 2017-0132239 Rutzky: ~ about 50 -- 12:55 and 59 seconds. Looks like he's stopped. It looks like ~ is he facing back towards you? Lippert He's facing back towards me. It looks like his hand's extending towards the ground, | mean if all he was trying to do is get away, he could ~ he could have just kept running. He didn't have to go back for that pistol. Rutzky: Do you remember seeing a gun at that point where ~ because it looks like he went down, and then he got back up, and then it looks like he went down again. Lippert: Rutzky: And we're just trying to be clear of ~ Lippert: Right here at this second, I do not. But obviously ~ Satterfield You want to play it? Lippert He was reaching down for something. It's hard to get it ~ Rutzky: So that's when he — it looks like he fell behind. Lippert: Yeah, in the van, yeah. Rutzky: Yeah. There's some kind of minivan, gold ~ goldish minivan. Lippert: And then he — Crime Tape Transcription, LLCa 2017-0132239 Rutzky: Then he's back up. Lippert: This is when he's facing me. This is when the pistol's in his hand. Rutzky; So it's right - at 12:56:03 he has a pistol in his hand at that point. Lippert: He has a pistol in his hand. Without a doubt a silver revolver, black handle. | mean it was -- it looked this big to me. Rutzky: Was anything said or done at this point or? Lippert: | mean at this point, this is where I'm -- this is where | believe | say, "Don't do this, man. Don't do this." pled with this gentleman. And even after the entire thing, you know, I - | held his hand after -- you know, after | tried to access his wounds. | held his hand. | mean | did not want this to go where it went, My job ~ my job is to effect the arrest, any arrest with as minimal force as possible. Even ifit's just a officer presence and verbal commands to - to whatever. They dictate the tempo; it's not me. Everything that I do is a direct result of what he's doing. You know, if he would have just followed my commands, you know. | ~ | mean initially at the -- at the back of this silver-white vehicle, whatever itis, | think it's silver, if he would have just put his hands on his back, it would have been the end of it, We would have both would have went home. But he chose not to do that. He made me react to his level of force. Rutzky: ‘So he was facing you when he picked up the gun. Lippert: ‘And that's when | started firing. The pistol is in his hands. He's facing me. Now, he's obviously tuming here at the end, but | mean | — | I'm already on Crime Tape Transcription, LLCFO Ol eae on ois W 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 42 2017-0132239 sight. I've already made the decision and, you know, and the neurons and they're doing their own thing. | mean | assess a lethal -- lethal threat and | begin to fire. Now, if he reacts to me firing or me ~ me pointing my pistol at him and he starts to tum, | mean |~ | don't know what was going through his mind. | wish I did. | wish | did. But ~ Rutzky: ‘Well, | want to be clear because that - he's facing you there, but earlier you say he’s tuming towards you with the gun when you fired. Lippert: Rutzky: because that's ~ Lippert: Rutzky: facing you there. Lippert: Rutzky: Lippert: Rutzky: (Incomprehensible.) And | don't -- I'm not — you know, it's I just want to be clear ~ obviously that's different than, you know, him -- he's obviously Yeah. And he's a threat there. Right. And that's - and I'm sorry. I'm -- I'm not perfect. I'm human. And -- and correct me. | don't want you to intermingle. This is the downside of watching video. Lippert: Uh-huh. Crime Tape Transcription, LLCIO os ed) cn) or co 1 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 43 2017-0132239 Rutzky: | don't want you to intermingle what you're seeing here with — Lippert: With what I (incomprehensible) Rutzky; — what you know. That's why in the first interview, we wanted to get (inaudible) what your perception was and now its ~ Lippert: Ultimately my perception is is he's square out with me, pistol in his hand, and he's a threat. And that's when | decide that he's a lethal threat. Everything else is dynamic and it happened fast. But | know that the decision ~ my decision to fire is when he is facing me. We are face to face, you know, eye to eye, you know. And — and not a moment earlier, not a moment later is | determine he's a threat when we are face to face and he has a loaded revolver in his hand. Rutzky: You're the only one that can clarify that — Lippert: (Incomprehensible.) Rutzky: ~ because it's — you know, at that point he's — he's facing you. Lippert: (Incomprehensible.) Rutzky: And then after that, he's tuming and — Lippert: And I don't know if he's running for cover. | don't ~ I mean | don't know what he's going through right here. | mean | - Crime Tape Transcription, LLC44 2017-0132239 Rutzky: So after he gets up, he's facing you and then he turns. From what I'm seeing on the video. Then he tums and moves away. And I'm trying to catch if there's point that I'm missing where he's turning towards you. Yeab, feel free to play around, see if there's ~ Lippert: Tuming towards me. Turning towards me. Towards me. Rutzky: And that's when he's — he's standing. That's at 12:56 and 0 seconds, And then he goes down to the ground behind -- and then he gets up again and he's facing you. So | mean that's -- | don't want you to interpret the — Lippert: Im — Rutzky: — the video. I's — | know that's the hard about watching it. Lippert: I know. I know. Rutzky: So do you recollect him turning or squared up? | just want to leave knowing ~ Brown: At which point? | mean I'm not understanding this. | don't want to interrupt you but - i mean he's obviously moving the whole time and | think you're asking him to freeze frame something and I'm not sure it can be done. But I'm — Rutzky: And | don't want like this to freeze frame something. Just want to be clear if he was — Lippert: At one point during the incident I remember him turning towards me, Crime Tape Transcription, LLC45 2017-0132239 okay, and I know — and | know in my heart, | know in my mind, I know that I do not deem him a lethal threat until we are face to face and he has a pistol in his hand. | guess if that's as much clarification | can do. Like | said, this is a dynamic situation. It happened fast. You know, | wish | had more time. You know, | - but there are - there are parts that I don't remember. From the initial interview, there ~ there's parts that | don't remember of the entire thing. And we have the benefit of watching the surveillance tape There's no doubt about that. But, you know, | ~ I'm sorry if my mind is - is — is jumbling things up, but | didn't fire on this man until he was a lethal threat to me. Rutzky: And that — and that's what | want to make sure of is - because it - you know the ~ when he's facing you, if he is facing you at that point, my question would be, you know, what's ~ where's the gun at that point. Lippert: The gun's in his hand. Rutzky; Okay. Is it pointed towards you or? Lippert: It is in his hand, He -- he squares up on me. His gun is in my hand (verbatim). I mean I don't understand. If all he wanted to do is get away, why does he keep grabbing for the gun? You know, and — and ~ and I don't know if that factored into my decision or not. All| know is he keeps going for the gun. It's a point that he's, making specifically to get this gun. He's not getting the gun to shake my hand, say good job, you know, thanks for the run. Rutzky: ‘And | don't want to say that you're doing wrong right here Lippert Iknow. I know. Crime Tape Transcription, LLC46 2017-0132239 Rutzky: If there's a ~ if | can — if | can answer the question, you know, because obviously people want to know ~ Lippert: (Incomprehensible.) Rutzky: ~ is where was the gun pointed? Lippert: Where was the gun pointed? The gun is facing my direction. He's facing my direction. Now, he is face on squared up with me. Gun's in his right hand. His right hand. 'm assuming that's his dominant hand because most people are. I'm not going to wait for him to shoot me first. We've tussled. It's been physical. You know, he — I've given him commands to stop what he's doing. You know, I'm a uniformed police officer. He had every opportunity to go without this pistol and he had to have it. And — and — and to me, he's — he's making a choice. And because of that, | made my choice. I mean that's all | can say is | did not fire on this man until he's a lethal threat. | did everything ! could to de-escalate the situation, everything | could to use the minimal amount of force as possible. | wish we both could have went home. | really do. And ~ and | moum for this gentleman and | mourn his family and their loss. But if| didn't do what | did, it would have been me and my kids mourning me. I'm not going to wait for him to shoot me first. Rutzky. We don't expect you to. We don't expect you to. We can take a minute if you need to. We're —- let's take a break. And then if there's anything else that we want to see on the video —- I'm -- let me take a break and then we can go back. And ! just want to make sure that there's nothing else on the video that we want to explain. Brown: Okay. Crime Tape Trenseription, LLC47 2017-0132239 Rutzky: Can | get you some water? Brown: Welll step out. Rutzky: Let's take a break. (Thereupon, a break is taken.) Rutzky: Okay. We've had a chance to take a break. That was basically the conclusion of my questions. Anyway, what | wanted to do at the end of all this is just give you an opportunity to say anything you'd like to. I'd like to go through the video one more time just from the top — Lippert Yeah. Rutzky: ~ and just — you know, just let me know what you see. Let's see here. Lippert: | guess my ~- my biggest thing from reviewing this is | mean | know a lot of the hows and the whys are and - and, you know, trying to get to the hows and the whys, but for me its important that | know that — I mean I'm moving, he's moving. This whole thing is moving. The world is moving during this whole thing. | mean it's hard to pinpoint, you know, frame for frame or freeze frame and say that this is the exact second that this happened or this is the exact second that this happened. I mean you can see. | mean this is on-going. It's moving. He's moving. I'm moving. The wind is blowing. | mean there's so many variables. Rutzky; Did at any point did he — like when he fell to the ground or did he — Crime Tape Tran:48 2017-0132239 did he stand his ground at any point or stop at any ~ like when he went to the ground, did he pause or anything or? Lippert: | mean it's important that he — he stops his movement and he ~ he faces me head on armed with a pistol in his hand. | mean he ~ he had a chance to just continue running, but he faced me with a pistol, with — with a revolver, a big revolver. Rutzky: And | see something about every time | watch this as well. But it looks like he's bending down to pick something up there at 12:56:00. Lippert: Like | said, | believe that’s where I'm trying to kick the pistol away. Rutzky; You think the pistol is maybe right there? Lippert: That — that's what ~ I remember kicking at the pistol, like | said. |~| ~ it it’s so hard to freeze frame this. | ~1 know | kicked at the pistol and tried to keep it away from him and then that would have been a whole another scenario if | could have prevented him from being — from re-arming himself, but i's just so hard to freeze frame any one thing on here because I'm moving, he's moving. This whole thing is dynamic. You know, all | know is ! did everything I could to use the minimal amount of force. Everything | did was in reaction to what he did. You know, | did not fire until | specifically — like | said, its lke that light switch. Okay, okay, okay, he's doing this, he's doing this, he's doing this. He is a threat, You need ~ you need to defend yourself, And it was — I mean it was (snapping fingers) it was like that. 1-1 can't ~ I can't articulate it anymore clearly. | mean | - obviously every millisecond that this is going on, he's moving, I'm moving. We're all ~ we're all processing it, He's processing it. I'm processing it. | fired on him when — when | deemed that he's a threat in -- in that moment with no malice towards him. | don't know him. | don't know if Crime Tape Transcription, LLC49 2017-0132239 I've ever met him before. | don't know if I've ever met his family. All| know is he stood toe to toe with me with a loaded handgun in his hand. And at that moment I decided to defend my life And I'm -- and like I said before, and like | said right before we leff, | grieve for his, family. | grieve for him. | feel sorry for his children. But | wasn't going to let it be me. And I'm sorry that my ~ my action was faster than his reaction or vice versa or whatever. He made a choice and he made me make a choice. I'm here; he's not and | grieve for that but Ihave a wife. | have —-| have kids. | have two little boys. | have an autistic six-year-old that is my life. | did everything | can to try to prevent this. | wish he was here. I wish he was still here. | wish he made better choices and then | wouldn't have had to made the choice that | made to defend my life. Rutzky: Did you — you say he dropped a cell phone, too? Lippert There was a cell phone. | distinctly remember the cell phone. | remember a hat. | want to say it was black with maybe red on it. And then laying -- the cell phone, the hat and my good pair of sunglasses that I don't know (incomprehensible) Rutzky: Do you remember where you picked up the cell phone from? Lippert Inever touched ~ | never touched his cell phone. Rutzky. Oh, | thought you said you — Lippert No. No. Itwas leftin the crime scene. When I went back and did my walkthrough, | remember distinctly seeing my sunglasses next to a hat and the cell phone, which happened to be right where we tussled, right where he went to the ground. 'm assuming it's his hat and his cell phone, But ! know those are my sunglasses. And Crime Tape Transcription, LLCSemryroaron 1 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 50 2017-0132239 that’s right at the ~ the — right near the edge - edge of that silver vehicle right there on the sidewalk, | mean right where he -- when he's standing next to me on solid pavement. He's, you know, standing over me because he's a bigger dude than I am, you know. Rutzky: Lippert: Rutzky: Lippert: Rutzky: Lippert: Rutzky: Lippert: Rutzky: Satterfield: Did you hear that cell phone or - | (incomprehensible). Do you know what ~ you're just assuming — ~- that came out during the scuffle or did — | mean it's not like that | watched it fly out of his pocket. Yeah You know, it wasn't there and then after we souffled, it was there. Okay. Danny, do you have anything? No, | think we're pretty clear on things. And | think we covered it. Is there anything else that you'd like to add to what you just said? Rutzky: Lippert: I think we're done. | appreciate your cooperation, ‘Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Crime Tape Transcriptic51 2017-0132239 Rutzky: All right. Brown: Okay. Rutzky: If there's anything that you didn't say that might need to be said, feel free to call us. We can always discuss this again if need be. | don't want to rehash it with you. Brown: Well, we know people's memories sort of coalesce after a little time goes by. So if we have anything else — Rutzky: Let us know if —~ Brown: We sure will Rutzky: ~ if you know anything, Satterfield: And, too, ! mentioned to you the other night, when we can get these interviews transcribed, I'd like you to read it for accuracy. And (incomprehensible) contact you when we get that. It may a take few days and so forth. Lippert: Yes, sir. Satterfield: Hit that button out the door, please. Rutzky: Ube right ~ I'l be right out Crime Tape Transcription, LLC52 2017-0132239 | certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the electronic audio recording with a time length of 01:17:04 from the interview in the above-entitled matter. Elizabeth J. Handy Crime Tape Transcription Crime Tape Transcription, LLC