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I have a question for anyone from Wu style.

I was talking to a colleague who told me every Tai Chi stance must avoid the fault
of double weighting. However I was looking at some pictures of old Wu style masters and they are using a Riding Horse stance
that appears to me to be equally weighted on each foot. Can anyone enlighten me as to why they are using a double weighted
stance?
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Robert Agar-Hutton The answer is going to depend on who you talk to - I think the truth is that nobody really knows what was
originally meant so they try and figure it out... The best explanation that I have ever been given is that it's not about 'weight
distribution it's about intent and ability - you should never be in a position where you cannot move quickly and lightly. ... I suspect
that for beginners that means that you don't want to be physically weighted 50./50 however a more advanced practitioner would be
able to move even if their weight was 50/50 - it may (and this is my interpretation) also suggest that a more advanced practitioner
doesn't actually STAY in any one posture but is always continuously and fluidly moving.
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Justin Timberwolf I agree Robert that stances are transitory, so you are saying it is permissible to be double weighted? Regarding
your other point of interpretation it seems quite clear to me the term 'double weighted' seems to clearly imply weight on both legs ie
fifty-fifty.
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Geordie McLellan I honestly don't think they are double weighted, because their waist is turned to the left (this is what solidifies the
hooking in the right hand). The posture is probably emphasizing that very thing, as opposed to the more obvious single weighting of
the standard Yang Style Single Whip.
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· Reply · 1h

Justin Timberwolf In the first picture of Wu Jianquan Geordie it is difficult to see because of the baggy clothes but it seems clear to
me the hips and shoulders are square to the front and the weight is evenly distributed, only the head is looking left.
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Geordie McLellan Yes, but what I said was, the waist is turning to the left. 'Gaze left' is an indication of that. Try standing in an even
stance like that with your arms out and palms upright, then gaze to your left, and feel your left palm turn outward and your right hand
hook downward. Wu style is middle frame, as I understand it, so they are using smaller circles.
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Geordie McLellan But yeah, point being, doing this slightly shifts your weight, even though it looks even.
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Justin Timberwolf So the hips are facing front, the shoulders are facing front, but the waist is turned to the left? Seems like quite a
stretch of the imagination, Occam's razor says he is facing front and only the head is looking left.
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Justin Timberwolf Also the Wu Tu Nan picture is looking to the front.


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Geordie McLellan You didn't try it.


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Justin Timberwolf Ok I tried it and I can feel the shift but to be honest it is about five percent ie the extra weight of the chin, it's still
pretty much double weighting, and what about the Wu Tu Nan pic? If it is so important why dont they stand in a 80-20 stance instead
of horse riding?
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Geordie McLellan Wu Tu Nan is the one looking to the left, the one looking straight on is Liu Hung Chieh. Because the goal is to
internalize the circles so nothing is apparent from their outside movements.
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Justin Timberwolf Sorry, I meant Liu Hung Chieh. So Geordie you are saying that we cant see from the physical posture where their
weight distribution is? I dont understand what you mean by 'internalize the circles'
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Geordie McLellan Ok. That might sound strange I suppose. It just means being able to use the principles on smaller scales. The
postures become smaller accordingly. So, things like weight shifting are less important than using the principles of the art, like look
left, gaze right. So the idea is to learn the principles in a way that is easy to express outwardly, and then to gradually compress them,
until they are undetectable.
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· Reply · 59m

Geordie McLellan Wu style is 'mid-frame', so expansive postures become more compact and the principles behind them become
more apparent from the inside, rather than the outside.
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· Reply · 58m

Justin Timberwolf Yes, so I was watching a video of Wu Tu Nan and he quite often stands in a stance with weight on both legs,
sometimes a smaller stance ie feet shoulder width apart. https://youtu.be/QZri3jheEbMManage
YOUTUBE.COM
Abbot Hai Teng of Shaolin, Wu Tu Nan, Li Zee Ming...
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Geordie McLellan Yeah, he's funny, he's showing so much by not showing much at all, notice his spine and waist move
independently of his head and eyes at times. I imagine this is because he's moving primarily from the Dan Tian. Usually though, the
'eyes follow the hands', and if you watch Li Zi Ming there, do his Bagua form, he gives a good example of that.
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· Reply · 49m

Geordie McLellan What Wu is doing is very small frame, and not Mid frame, I'd compare it to Sun style or Hao style.
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Geordie McLellan (They aren't moving independently, the sort of appear so though, it's more like he's moving internally back and
forth around a pole, his spine, and he can do that while looking forward)
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Petr Švarc Wudangptcc The so called "double-weighting" is not about the weight distribution at all. You can be "double-weighted"
standing on one leg...
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Justin Timberwolf So what exactly is it about Petr because maybe the name should be changed from double weighting if it is not
about double weighting?
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Petr Švarc Wudangptcc In this case the translation can be misleading. Use the original chinese term and understand what it means.
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Justin Timberwolf What is the original Chinese term?


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Petr Švarc Wudangptcc 雙重
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Justin Timberwolf Does anyone have a definitive quote from a Tai Chi classic or something that correctly explains 'double
weighting'?
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Petr Švarc Wudangptcc The term is discussed in Taijiquan Lun - for example: "if one is double-weighted, then one is stagnant"
(Davis, B. Taijiquan Classics) or "If you have equal pressure on both sides, you will be stuck" (Brennan, P.).
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Cuong Sam Double weighted has nothing to do with having weight on both of your leg.

Double weightedness refers to you dont know how to move when ur being attacked. I.e when u see a punch comes at u u froze on the
spot instead of getting out of the way....See More

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Justin Timberwolf So Cuong, double weighted means a mental act of being indecisive is that it, nothing to do with the physical
posture?

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Cuong Sam Thats a gd way of putting it yes... the horse stance is a very unique stance in a way that it can exercise both of ur legs at
the same time and same intensity.

I see ppl deliberately trying not to do this in their form all because a misunderstanding of this "double weightedness"
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Cuong Sam So if u can move when being attcked then ur not suffering from the double weightedness sickness... doesn't matter where
your weight is in your leg whilst practicing your form

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Justin Timberwolf Your answer seems the most plausible Cuong Sam
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Justin Timberwolf Cuong Sam from your profile picture you seem to be very young to have such knowledge of Tai Chi Ch'uan, are
you a speaker of a Chinese dialect? Are you familiar with the Chinese written characters for double weighting?
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· Reply · 57m

Charles Gorrie It can also mean being over extended and unable to move. Locked.
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Justin Timberwolf wrong footed maybe?


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· Reply · 55m · Edited

Charles Gorrie That could create a double weighting situation particularly if you end up stuck but is you are still able to move and
recover then you would not be double weighted.
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· Reply · 47m

Cuong Sam Thanks for the compliment... im hitting 80 in 4 months.

Im not verse in Chinese unfortunately. But if you think about it, if double weightedness refer to physical weight distribution then
standing still talking to your friend is a sickness... that cant b right!

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Charles Gorrie You don’t know how the Wu lineage interpret double weighting.
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· Reply · 56m · Edited

Justin Timberwolf Please enlighten us Charles


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Charles Gorrie Someone turned up at one of my classes and innthe wu chi posture I noticed they were moving from side to side. I
asked them why. They told me it was to prevent them being double weighted. In wu posture above the weight is equal below but the
top can move freely so there is no sickness of double weighting. Stiffness will also lead to a person being double weighted in a fight
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· Reply · 49m

Ashwin Kukreja Glenn Nunes


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· Reply · 45m

Ashwin Kukreja Something to discuss


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Ashwin Kukreja With Sifu too


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Micha Polak my understanding now is that in taichi there is no double weightedness.Just the relationship between yin and yang and
their transitions.One of the characteristics is that yang and yin can be double weighted when there is static/stagnation which is not
taichi the natural changing from yin to yang and viseversa
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· Reply · 44m

Justin Timberwolf So are we all in agreement with Cuong Sam it is about being unable to move freely nothing to do with actual
weight distribution?
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· Reply · 43m
Micha Polak ofcourse weight distribution is an isue
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Micha Polak clear distinction between the leg that we are on and the one we're not is essential.maybe not in a skill level that i am not
in
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Charles Gorrie Cuing and I have the same teacher


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Justin Timberwolf Oh really, who is that?


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Charles Gorrie Dan Docherty


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Justin Timberwolf Is this wudang style?


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Justin Timberwolf Can someone find the original Chinese characters for double weighting? A Chinese speaker? I am sure the
etymology would be helpful.
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· Reply · 41m

Petr Švarc Wudangptcc 雙重 (read the replies)


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· Reply · 36m

Scott Burkhalter 雙重
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Fred Hao Easy!


Being Stagnant is being double-weighted....See More
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· Reply · 39m

Saša Balanesković Old memories of horse riding archers...


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Justin Timberwolf One thing it reminds me of is in the Sun Tzu where it says you should not split your forces. In military strategy it
is better to commit your entire force to one action against an opponent, by dividing your forces you lessen the impact against one
target. So is this the same principle? In timing it equates to knocking them down in one punch rather than a protracted exchange.
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· Reply · 34m · Edited

Scott Burkhalter I like "double heavy" it's a better translation in my opinion. It's not strictly about footwork and weight distribution.

Lots of ways of understanding this.

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