An Unlikely Conversation

The difference a decade makes

Jeffrey Brooks Price

10/4/2008

Table of Contents
Introduction 3

Dialogue – An Unlikely Meeting 4

Dialogue – A Godless World 5

Dialogue – A Purposeless World 8

Dialogue – A Reason to Believe 10

Bibliography 15
Introduction

Seeing the gospel on display in the lives of the living stones1 that make up the church today is a
profound gift to the world. Here the Holy Spirit works to expand the Kingdom of God and use these
living stones to spread the message of hope to all corners of the globe. While I was still an unbeliever
this message of hope confronted me again and again. Approximately ten years ago I was wrestling with
this unbelief and desire to assert my autonomy.

Setting aside for now that time travel is not possible, think about God’s eternal existence and how he
transcends time and space. Think about how God could use me, a believer, in 2008 to talk to an
unbeliever like myself in 1998. Obviously this would be a very shocking conversation to have,
especially to my 1998 counterpart, but this shock could have been set aside. To an unbeliever there is
no foundational truth in time, for time is that which the Lord has ordained for his creation to exist in.
The unbeliever lives in a world where there is only actuality and potentiality, and everything can
potentially become something else, not because God can intervene in time and space but because the
human mind can dream up infinite possibilities for asserting its own autonomy.

Let us then explore a conversation between a twenty-one year old unbeliever, who is searching for truth
anywhere he can find it and yet is certain of one truth that can’t be real, Christianity. And a thirty-one
year old believer, who is humbly searching for greater understanding of the truth he has found in the
message of salvation in Jesus Christ alone.

Dialogue – An Unlikely Meeting

Geoff (slightly inebriated and thinking to himself): This party turned out great, there are tons of people
here and everyone is having a great time. But who is that guy over there?

Jeffrey: Hi, your name is Geoff right?

Geoff: Yeah, how did you know? What’s your name?

Jeffrey: My name is Jeffrey and I think we have some mutual friends in common. They have told me
how much you enjoy arguing about God, and I must admit that I really enjoy talking about that topic
too.

Geoff: I wouldn’t say I enjoy arguing, they are more like heated discussions that turn ugly when I have
thoroughly convinced those people that believe in God of their weak mindedness and need for a crutch.

Jeffrey: Yes, of course I understand. There are a lot of people out there that have no idea why they
believe what they believe. I’m guessing you aren’t one of those people?

Geoff: No way! I’m not like one of those sheep that just blindly follows what other people say, or uses
a fairy tale like the Bible to back up what I have to say. I use my mind to think through things, to use
reason and logic. I don’t know everything, but I know that there is no reason to believe in God.
Jeffrey: Oh yeah, why’s that?

Geoff: Are you sure you really want to go down this road? We could be here for hours!

Jeffrey: Sure, I love talking about theology! I actually lead a small group Bible study where we talk
about this stuff all the time. In fact, the two topics they say you are never supposed to talk about with
people, religion and politics, are my two favorite things to talk about. People get so passionate about it!

Geoff: Yeah, I’m the same way actually. But don’t say I didn’t warn you about getting angry when I
prove how silly it is to believe in God.

Jeffrey: No problem, I know the feeling better than you might think. So tell me, why don’t you believe
in God? Lots of people admit they don’t know what to believe, but there aren’t many people who are
willing to say that they don’t believe at all.

Dialogue – A Godless World

Geoff: I’m not sure you are asking the right question. A better question would be why do you believe in
God? Because everything in the world, everything we know about the world proves he doesn’t exist.
There is no reason to think there is someone out there in control of everything. Science has moved
beyond the need for God and humans have evolved to a higher understanding.

Jeffrey: Well that is a fair question, why do I believe, but I didn’t ask you if there was reason to believe
or not, but I asked why do YOU have reason not to believe?

Geoff: Look, I’ve grown up reading the Bible and going to church. I’ve gone through all those catholic
sacraments and read through the Bible, but then I went to college. In college I got to read a lot of
philosophy like Aristotle, Hume and Kant. They made so much more sense than the Bible ever did. I’m
in control of my world and there is no way that a god can exist here. The Bible is just full of children
stories, like Curious George, trying to teach us how to stay out of trouble. God is the man in the yellow
hat and I guess that makes Jesus the little monkey. I don’t need that and I don’t need God. I have a
stronger mind than most people and that’s not prideful, that’s just how it is. I can’t help it that I’m able
to see these things more clearly than others or that my will is stronger than theirs. They are just weak
for even needing a god in the first place.

Jeffrey: Wow, it certainly appears as though you’ve given this a lot of thought. I have to ask, though,
how do you reconcile that you are in control of your world and yet you can’t help being who you are?
Also, doesn’t your world have to interact with everyone else in some way? It doesn’t appear that it’s
possible for anyone else to live in the world, if you cease existing or choose for them not to exist.

Geoff: Well what I mean by my world is that I have control over myself and no one is going to tell me
what to do. If I choose to treat someone as though they don’t exist, that’s my prerogative and not theirs.
As for not being able to control who I am, it is the same thing, I have control over who I am and who I
am becoming. It’s up to me and I will make of myself what I want.

Jeffrey: But at the end of the day you can’t control other people, you can’t control how they choose to
interact with you and you can’t control their minds. Sounds like you have to rely on something outside
your own mind. You need to have a world in which to interact, learn and grow with other people;
otherwise you’ll have a very lonely existence inside your head. That world exists outside of your
control and outside of your own abilities to think it up. Not only would you be very lonely, but you’d
also be very exhausted if the world relied upon your mind to exist. Think about the world around you
and the immensity of it all and how impossible it would be for you to control all of this. Think about
how the world has existed before and will exist after you. Psalm 19 says, “The heavens declare the
glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.”2 You said that everything in the world
proves that God doesn’t exist, but the contrast to that is everything in the world proves the he does
exist. That is proven within creation, within man, and within the beauty of everything you see around
you. Scripture explicitly states this fact which is the basic assumption for the entire Bible.

Geoff: Well I don’t like what you are saying, but I have to admit that it certainly can be lonely
sometimes having a mind like mine and it is tiring having to always assert my autonomy to other
people. You’re right that the world is bigger than me and no matter how much I assert who I am; other
people are doing the same thing right back at me.

Jeffrey: It would be so much easier to rest in the knowledge that the same God who created everything,
including you, is also sustaining everything including you. The existence of God may not be something
you like, but all of creation and our interaction with it point us in that direction.

Dialogue – A Purposeless World

Geoff: Alright, let’s just assume then that a god exists for the sake of argument. There is still no reason
to believe there is purpose behind the world. There is only chance and physical matter, no tie that binds
us all together and no reason to believe that a god would even care what is going on here if he created
the world.

Jeffrey: So what you really want to know is why does God exist? And if there is a reason for why he
exists, does it have anything to do with why you exist?

Geoff: Exactly, because as far as I’m concerned we could be like a big cosmic tissue. I blow my nose
into a tissue and instantly a world is created in there, but I don’t care about any of that and just throw it
way. If there is a god, then this world has to be just like that. We are lying in a waste basket somewhere
in the universe without anyone caring about us.

Jeffrey: That’s a rather sad outlook and if that were true, then I can see why you’d say there is no
purpose behind the world. But then why bother with us at all? We talked earlier about the wonders of
creation and if we take the time to create something isn’t that also for our enjoyment and the enjoyment
of others? It seems to me that God not only created us, but created us for a specific purpose. The image
that the Bible gives us is that we were created in the very image of God3, and that is a far cry from snot
in a tissue wouldn’t you say?

Geoff: Yes, but that doesn’t make it true. Just because the Bible says that, doesn’t mean it is reality.

Jeffrey: You mentioned earlier how much more sense the philosophers made than the Bible, and yet
you also said the Bible was good for keeping us out of trouble. Scripture actually points out the trouble
that those philosophers can get us into, when led by the Holy Spirit, the apostle Paul wrote, “See to it
that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according
to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.”4 Aristotle, Hume and Kant have
given you a philosophy of lies that is empty and is not able to answer the deep questions of your heart,
like why God exists or why you exist.

Geoff: Well it is good to know that the Bible is at least trying to answer that question.

Jeffrey: It does more than try, Geoff, it reveals to us by the power of the illuminating Spirit, that not
only does God exist, but that there is plan and purpose behind creation, and yes even plan and purpose
for you and your life. God does nothing accidentally and you can imagine how chaotic the world would
be, and even possibly cease to exist if there was no one there to sustain us and carry us through.

Geoff: So you are saying that not only does he exist, but that there is a reason we are here? That still
seems like a stretch, but I suppose it is comforting to know that chaos is not king.

Jeffrey: Well not only is chaos not king, but the Bible shows us people who know who the king really
is and recognize him as their Lord. An actual king who I’m sure you have heard of before, David, said
this, “The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O LORD, endures forever. Do not
forsake the work of your hands.”5 This king not only submitted to God as Lord, but also recognized the
enduring love that God has for those he calls his own. Do you throw away what you have created and
forget about it? Or do you recognize like David did, that a creator cares for his creation and even shows
his lasting love for it?

Dialogue – A Reason to Believe

Geoff: Not that I’m buying into all this, especially all this Bible talk, but what does this God have to do
with me? Why would he even be concerned with me as his creation?

Jeffrey: That’s an excellent question! From the very beginning in creation, God molded man, formed us
in his image and breathed life into our bodies6. He did this so that we could fulfill the purposes that he
has given us7, not that he needed us, but for his own glory and our good sakes. But man rebelled against
God through disobedience and fundamentally changed from being in perfect relationship with God and
each other to the fallen world we see today where we struggle with our relationships to God and to each
other8.

Geoff: Wait a minute, why should I have to take the blame for something Adam & Eve supposedly
did? I wasn’t there, I’m not at fault, and so what does that have to do with me?

Jeffrey: Yes that is a good question to wrestle with. Adam is a representative for all of mankind,
because he was the first man9. His relationship with God changed dramatically with the fall and his
assertion of autonomy that in turn changed the relationship with all mankind to follow behind him. If
you think about it, you will see that your heart makes the same mistake that Adam did by choosing to
be your own God and asserting yourself over and above any other authority around you. But as you
have seen, it is impossible for you to consistently remain in that thought process. Because of the
disobedience of Adam and the deep ethical change in his heart, there had to be a penalty paid.

Geoff: Aha, I knew this God of the Bible couldn’t be trusted. He expects us to pay a price for our lives;
he is no different than a credit card company charging you 20% interest. If I had the money to pay for
what I wanted to begin with then I’d have the money to pay the interest, but I don’t have either!
Jeffrey: That is the beauty of it Geoff; he doesn’t expect you to pay. He sent his only son, Jesus Christ,
to pay that penalty for you, to bear the punishment of your disobedience. Paul writes in Romans, “For
if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the
grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.”10 By God’s grace and his steadfast love for his
children, he has given the life of Jesus Christ to make you righteous before God. Specifically, Paul
writes again in 2 Corinthians that, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him
we might become the righteousness of God.”11 Let the weight of that sink in. Jesus Christ took on our
sin, so that we could take on his righteousness and by doing so he has fundamentally repaired our
relationship with God by redeeming us.

Geoff: But why on earth would he do that? If we make a mistake, shouldn’t we be the ones to pay for
it?

Jeffrey: Because God is for us, he is not against us.12 He is not out to trick you, deceive you, or
otherwise point you towards anything other than his truth, his existence and his love for his people.

Geoff: For me? But I’m not even willing to admit he exists or that if he exists he has any purpose for
anything. There is no reason for him to care about me at all, I’m nothing to him.

Jeffrey: Geoff, you bear the image of the divine Creator by simply being a man. And by being a man,
you are made for a very particular and special purpose. You have been seeking the truth because God
has made your heart to desire the deepest, most profound truth of all, which is to acknowledge his
existence and bow down to him as Lord.13 Geoff, I can see that you are struggling with these questions
and struggling even more with the answers you are finding. Let me encourage you to go back and read
through the Bible again, with a mind focused on discovering the truth. You will not be disappointed!

Geoff: But where do I begin?

Jeffrey: I have quite literally been where you are, and can suggest that you begin by reading Romans.
There you will discover why God is for you and not against you14, and I believe it will be the most
profound discovery of your life.

Geoff: Well you have certainly given me quite a lot to think about. These conversations usually unravel
so quickly for me, but this time it was different. There is something strangely familiar about you. I
hope we can talk about this again sometime.

Jeffrey: I will definitely be around and look forward to our next conversation.

Bibliography
Craig, William Lane, and Quentin Smith. Theism, Atheism and Big Bang Cosmology. Oxford: Oxford
University Press Inc., 1995.

Craig, William Lane, et al. Five Views on Apologetics. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2000.
Frame, John M. Apologetics to the Glory of God: An Introduction. Phillipsburg: P&R Publishing, 1994.

Lewis, C.S. Mere Christianity. New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1960.

Niebuhr, H. Richard. Christ & Culture. New York: HarperCollins, 1951.

Richard L. Pratt, Jr. Every Thought Captive: A Study Manual for the Defense of Christian Truth.
Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1979.

1 1 Peter 2:5 ESV you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy
priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

2 Psalms 19:1 ESV To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and
the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

3 Genesis 1:27 ESV So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male
and female he created them.

4 Colossians 2:8 ESV See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit,
according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to
Christ.

5 Psalms 138:8 ESV The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O LORD, endures
forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands.

6 Genesis 2:7 ESV then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

7 Genesis 1:28 ESV And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill
the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and
over every living thing that moves on the earth."

8 Genesis 3:24 ESV He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the
cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

9 Romans 5:12 ESV Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin,
and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

10 Romans 5:15 ESV But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's
trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ
abounded for many.
11 2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we
might become the righteousness of God.

12 Romans 8:31 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

13 Romans 1:19 ESV For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to
them.

14 Romans 8:31 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?