Corbett

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 FOR THE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
3 SOUTHERN DIVISION
4
CHAD FARNAN, a minor, by and )
5 through his parents BILL )
FARNAN and TERESA FARNAN, )
6 )
Plaintiff, )
7 )
vs. ) CASE NO.:
8 ) SACV07-1434JVS (ANX)
)
9 CAPISTRANO UNIFIED SCHOOL ) Judge: Honorable
DISTRICT; DR. JAMES CORBETT, ) James. V. Selna
10 individually and in his )
official capacity as an )
11 employee of Capistrano Unified)
School District; and DOES 1 )
12 through 20, inclusive, )
)
13 Defendants. )
______________________________)
14
15 DEPOSITION OF: DR. JAMES CORBETT
16 DATE: March 2, 2009
17 TIME: 9:25 a.m.
18 LOCATION: ADVOCATES FOR FAITH AND FREEDOM

24910 Las Brisas Road
19 Murrieta, California
20
21 REPORTED BY:
Paula A. Pyburn, C.S.R., R.P.R., C.L.R.
22 California C.S.R. No. 7304
Our File No.: 030209
23
24
25
CANYON LAKE REPORTING, INC. (951) 244-3745

1 APPEARANCES
3 For the Plaintiff:
4 ADVOCATES FOR FAITH AND FREEDOM

BY: JENNIFER L. MONK, ESQ.
5 ROBERT H. TYLER, ESQ.
(where indicated)
6 24910 Las Brisas Road, Suite 110
Murrieta, California 92562
7 (951) 304-7583
9
For the Defendants:
10
WOODRUFF, SPRADLIN & SMART
11 BY: DAN SPRADLIN, ESQ.
555 Anton Boulevard, Suite 1200
12 Costa Mesa, California 92626
(714) 558-7000
13
14
For the Defendants:
15
CALIFORNIA TEACHERS ASSOCIATION
16 BY: MICHAEL HERSH, ESQ.
11745 East Telegraph Road
17 Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
(562) 478-1348
18
19
Also Present:
20
Bill Farnan
21 Chad Farnan
Teresa Farnan
22 Kristi Robles (where indicated)
Benjamin C. Rosenbaum
23
24
25
2
1 I N D E X
2 Deposition of DR. JAMES CORBETT
3 Examination by: Page
4 Ms. Monk...............................................4
5 Afternoon Session.....................................66
7 E X H I B I T S
8
Plaintiff's Description
9
No. 1 Constitution of the Freethinking
10 Atheist & Agnostic Kinship for
High School Clubs......................70
11
No. 2 Newspaper Article......................80
12
INFORMATION REQUESTED:
13
(None)
14
15
INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER:
16
PAGE LINE
17
7 10
18 7 15
24 1
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3
1 MURRIETA, CALIFORNIA - MONDAY, MARCH 2, 2009
2 9:25 a.m. - 2:47 p.m.
4 DR. JAMES CORBETT,
5 having been first duly sworn was
6 examined and testified as follows:
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. MONK:
10 Q. My name is Jennifer Monk, I'm an attorney for
11 Chad.
12 Can you please state and spell your name for
13 the record.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Go ahead.
16 A. James Corbett, C-o-r-b as in "boy" -e-t-t.
17 Q. And your middle name?
18 A. Richard.
19 Q. Have you ever had a deposition taken before?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And when was that?
22 A. Must have been about ten years ago.
23 Q. Do you understand that the testimony you give
24 today is under penalty of perjury?
25 A. Yes.
4
1 Q. And do you understand what that means, penalty
2 of perjury?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Have you ever testified in court or other legal
5 proceedings?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The function of the court reporter is to
8 transcribe everything that is said, so try to make sure
9 that you answer audibly and don't say "uh-huh" in
10 response to questions.
11 Following the deposition you'll have the
12 opportunity to review your transcript and make any
13 changes. However, any modifications may be used to
14 impeach or attack your credibility in future
15 proceedings, but any major -- minor changes might not be
16 significant, but major changes may be used against you.
17 Do you understand that?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. SPRADLIN: Slow down.
20 BY MS. MONK:
21 Q. If you answer a question, I will -- I will
22 assume that you understood it. If you don't understand
23 a question, ask me to repeat it, please. And your
24 attorney may state an objection. In a deposition you're
25 required to answer unless your attorney specifically
5
1 instructs you otherwise.
2 Is there any reason you cannot give your best
3 testimony today?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you have any medical or health conditions
6 that would prevent you from giving your best testimony
7 today?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Have you taken any drugs or medication in the
10 last 24 hours that would prevent your best testimony
11 today?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you read or review any documents in
14 preparation for your deposition testimony today?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What documents did you review?
17 A. I read some Lorenzo Valla.
18 Q. Is that is it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And why did you review Lorenzo Valla?
21 A. I use it in class.
22 Q. What do you use it in class for?
23 A. It's a part of teaching about the Renaissance.
24 Q. Did you review any audio recordings in
25 preparation for this deposition today?
6
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you review any video recordings in
3 preparation for this deposition today?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you speak with anyone other than your
6 attorney or his staff about your deposition today?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who did you speak with?
9 A. My wife.
10 Q. And what did you and your wife discuss about
11 the deposition?
12 MR. SPRADLIN: Spousal privilege. Don't answer
13 the question.
14 BY MS. MONK:
15 Q. Can you please state your current address.
16 MR. SPRADLIN: You can contact us or contact
17 Dr. Corbett from my office. That information is, given
18 the nature of this case, invasive and I'm going to tell
19 him not to put that on the record. If for any reason
20 you need to contact Dr. Corbett in the context of this
21 lawsuit and I can't provide that information to you,
22 then I'll make the commitment to provide you with the
23 last known address that I have for Dr. Corbett at that
24 time.
25 MS. MONK: You're instructing the witness not
7
1 to answer what his address is?
2 MR. SPRADLIN: That's correct.
3 BY MS. MONK:
4 Q. Can you tell me your educational background,
5 Dr. Corbett?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Go ahead.
8 A. Well, I started at the Galey School in Venice,
9 California, and I was there from kindergarten until I
10 believe it was fourth grade.
11 And from there we moved to West Anaheim, and I
12 initially attended what they called in those days "the
13 Mexican school." I believe that subsequently it was
14 renamed Magnolia II. I was there for fourth grade and
15 part of fifth grade.
16 And I believe then they built Jonas Salk
17 School, also in West Anaheim, and I was there for sixth
18 grade.
19 And then in seventh grade they were building
20 schools very fast. I was supposed to go to Trident
21 Junior High School but Trident hadn't been built yet, so
22 they had all the kids go to Orangeview Junior High
23 School half day. And then halfway through the year they
24 finished Trident and we all started going to Trident.
25 And then in eighth grade they were building
8
1 another school closer to my home, which was Dale Junior
2 High School, but Dale Junior High School wasn't finished
3 in time, so they sent us all back to Orangeview Junior
4 High School for half days, and we went there for most of
5 that year, and then they finished Dale and I went to
6 Dale.
7 I stayed at Dale through ninth grade.
8 In tenth grade I was supposed to go to Magnolia
9 High School but Magnolia High School hadn't been built,
10 finished, so they sent us to Western High School, where
11 we were half day with the Western students.
12 THE REPORTER: At the Western students?
13 THE WITNESS: With the Western students.
14 Then they finished Magnolia and I went to
15 Magnolia.
16 From Magnolia -- we were going half day, I
17 remember, at Magnolia because the students at Savannah,
18 which hadn't been finished yet, had to go with us.
19 And then subsequently I moved to Garden Grove
20 High School, while I was a junior.
21 I left Garden Grove High in 1964 and I went to
22 Orange Coast College. And I left Orange Coast College
23 in 1966.
24 And I went to Syracuse University.
25 I left Syracuse University in 1969 and I went
9
1 to San Diego State University.
2 From San Diego State I went to Ohio State
3 University -- actually it's The Ohio State University,
4 to be correct.
5 From Ohio State I went to Catawba College. And
6 from Catawba College I went to UCI.
7 That's it.
8 BY MS. MONK:
9 Q. Did you receive a degree at Orange Coast
10 College?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were you just taking general ed classes there,
13 general education classes?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you receive a degree from Syracuse
16 University?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what was your degree in?
19 A. Journalism, radio, television.
20 Q. And did you receive a degree from San Diego
21 State University?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what was that degree in?
24 A. Mass communications.
25 Q. Was that a master's degree that you received
10
1 from San Diego State?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you receive a degree from Ohio State
4 University?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And was that a master's degree as well?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Is that your Ph.D.?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what was your Ph.D. in?
11 A. Rhetoric and journalism.
12 Q. And did you receive a degree from Catawba
13 College?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Can you spell that for me?
16 A. C-a-t-a-w-b-a.
17 Q. And where is that located?
18 A. Salisbury, North Carolina.
19 Q. What classes did you take at Catawba College?
20 A. I don't recall the exact classes.
21 Q. What were you studying at Catawba College
22 generally?
23 A. Education.
24 Q. And did you receive a degree from UCI?
25 A. No.
11
1 Q. What classes -- or what were you studying at
2 UCI generally?
3 A. Education.
4 Q. Do you have any other degrees?
5 A. No.
6 Q. At any point did you minor in history?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you minor in history at Syracuse
9 University?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you take history classes at San Diego State
12 University?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did you take history classes at Ohio State
15 University?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who is your present employer?
18 A. Capistrano Unified School District.
19 Q. And how long have you been working for the
20 school district?
21 A. 20 years.
22 Q. During that time have you always been a teacher
23 at Capistrano Valley High School?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Prior to your employment with Capistrano
12
1 Unified School District, where were you working?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where were you working at that time?
4 MR. SPRADLIN: It's vague as to time. Are you
5 talking about immediately prior to going to work for the
6 Capistrano Unified School District?
7 MS. MONK: Yes.
8 MR. SPRADLIN: If you understand the question
9 you can go ahead and answer it.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I think it was the
11 Long Beach Unified School District.
12 BY MS. MONK:
13 Q. What classes did you teach for Long Beach
14 Unified School District?
15 A. I don't recall.
16 Q. How long did you teach for the Long Beach
18 A. A few days. I don't recall.
19 Q. And where were you employed just prior to the
20 Long Beach Unified School District?
21 A. I believe, I can't be certain, it was at
22 Saddleback Unified School District.
23 Q. How long were you employed by Saddleback
25 A. Again, I can't recall exactly. A few days.
13
1 Q. Have you ever had a lawsuit other than the one
2 that was filed by Chad Farnan filed against you?
3 A. I'm not sure.
4 Q. Was a lawsuit filed against you by a former
5 teacher of Capistrano Unified School District?
6 A. I'm not sure about the legal meaning of "filed
7 against me."
8 Q. Were you a defendant in a lawsuit filed by a
9 former teacher of Capistrano Unified School District?
10 A. I may have been.
11 Q. Do you remember a lawsuit filed by a
12 Mr. Peloza?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember what that lawsuit was about?
15 A. In general?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I believe he was a science teacher who -- I
18 can't be certain. I believe he claimed the right to
19 deviate from state standards based on his expertise.
20 Q. How did Mr. Peloza want to deviate from state
21 standards?
22 A. I'm not a science teacher. I know that the
23 lawsuit was filed.
24 Q. How were you involved in that lawsuit?
25 MR. SPRADLIN: Well, assumes facts not in
14
1 evidence.
2 But you can answer the question.
3 THE WITNESS: That -- earlier when you asked if
4 I was a defendant, I don't exactly know what it means to
5 be a defendant. I was never in a situation like this,
6 it was never a courtroom. To the best of my
7 recollection he filed a lawsuit against the school
8 district.
9 BY MS. MONK:
10 Q. But you do not remember that he filed a lawsuit
11 against you personally?
12 A. I don't recall ever being served. Again, I'm
13 not sure about the legal meaning of being a defendant,
14 to be a named party. I don't recall the word -- I don't
15 recall having to defend myself.
16 Q. Were you the advisor of the newspaper at the
17 time that the lawsuit was filed by Mr. Peloza?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you permit the students on the
20 newspaper to publish an article in the newspaper
21 regarding evolution?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Are you familiar with the group called The
24 Neighborhood Schools for Our Kids?
25 A. No.
15
1 Q. Have you ever intervened in a lawsuit on behalf
2 of the -- on behalf of the Capistrano Unified School
3 District?
4 A. Yes, I do recall that, but I didn't recall the
5 name of that group when you mentioned it.
6 Q. And what was that lawsuit regarding?
7 A. I'm not sure.
8 Q. Why did you choose to intervene in the lawsuit?
9 A. I was asked as both a parent and a teacher in
10 the district, as well as a resident of the district, and
11 the parent of a child who goes to school in the
12 district, I was advised that there was the potential in
13 that lawsuit for a legal precedent to be set that would
14 have had the effect, were it used by other school
15 districts -- or other people, I should say, other
16 claimants, it had the potential to resegregate
17 California schools.
18 Having been a student at the Mexican school, I
19 understood that any possibility of resegregation would
20 do damage to children, and so I agreed to allow my name
21 to be used.
22 Q. Have you ever filed a lawsuit against any other
23 person?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How many?
16
1 A. Not certain. I think, to the best of my
2 recollection, two.
3 Q. Who was the first lawsuit filed against?
4 A. Privett & Tinsher.
5 Q. And what was that lawsuit about?
6 A. Incompetent repair of an automobile.
7 Q. Who was the second lawsuit filed against?
8 A. Toyota of America.
9 Q. And what was the subject of that lawsuit?
10 A. Incompetent repair of an automobile.
11 Q. Have you been involved in any other lawsuits?
12 MR. SPRADLIN: It's vague and ambiguous as to
13 "involved."
14 You can answer the question to the best of your
15 ability.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 BY MS. MONK:
18 Q. How many?
19 A. Do you mean other than the ones we've already
20 spoken about?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I think just one other, but I can't be certain.
23 Q. What was that lawsuit about?
24 A. It was a claim for liability.
25 Q. Did you file the lawsuit?
17
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who did you file the lawsuit against?
3 A. Can't recall the name of the construction
4 company.
5 Q. What was the subject matter of the lawsuit?
6 A. It had to do with a bicycle accident due to
7 their negligence.
8 Q. And when was that lawsuit filed?
9 A. I can't be certain.
10 Q. Do you affiliate with a particular religion
11 now?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What religion is that?
14 A. Christianity.
15 Q. Would you describe yourself as a Christian?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you attend a church right now?
18 A. Could you better explain that question?
19 Q. Do you attend church services on Sunday
20 mornings?
21 A. Sometimes.
22 Q. How often do you attend church services?
23 A. Perhaps two times a month on average.
24 Q. And what church do you attend?
25 A. Various churches.
18
1 Q. Can you please list the names of the churches?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please list them.
4 A. Most often I attend Crossline church.
5 Q. And who is the pastor at Crossline?
6 A. I don't recall his name.
7 Q. Where is Crossline located?
8 A. It's at 26301 Via Escolar, Mission Viejo.
9 Q. How many times have you been -- have you
10 attended a service at Crossline church within the last
11 six months?
12 A. Probably -- can't recall exactly.
13 Q. Is it more than eight times?
14 A. Certainly.
15 Q. More than 20?
16 A. I doubt that many.
17 Q. Have you ever met the pastor at Crossline
18 church?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But you don't remember his name?
21 A. No.
22 Q. What other churches do you attend?
23 A. I have been to the Calvary Chapel church in --
24 I believe it's in Capistrano Beach.
25 Q. Are there any other churches that you have
19
1 attended?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you please state them for me.
4 A. I'm trying to recall the name of the saint, but
5 I've attended the Catholic church in San Juan.
6 Q. Do you know the name of the pastor at Calvary
7 Chapel Capistrano Beach in Capistrano Beach?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. Do you know the name of the priest at the
10 Catholic church in San Juan?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 Q. How many times have you attended a church
13 service at Calvary Chapel Capistrano Beach?
14 A. Maybe twice.
15 Q. And how many times have you attended a church
16 service at the Catholic church in San Juan?
17 A. Probably 20 times.
18 Q. At any point in your life have you ever
19 affiliated with a religious denomination?
20 MR. SPRADLIN: Well, that's vague and
21 ambiguous. He just described attendance at church, when
22 you talk about "affiliation," so maybe you could be a
23 little more specific as to what your question means.
24 BY MS. MONK:
25 Q. Do you understand what a denomination means,
20
1 Dr. Corbett?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What religious denominations have you
4 affiliated with throughout your life?
5 MR. SPRADLIN: Still vague and ambiguous and
6 overly broad.
7 If you understand the question, you can answer
8 it.
9 THE WITNESS: Roman Catholic.
10 BY MS. MONK:
11 Q. Is Crossline church a nondenominational church?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have you ever attended any other type of
14 religious services?
15 MR. SPRADLIN: It's vague and ambiguous. Other
16 than what? Are you asking him if he's been to some
17 other churches?
18 Do you understand the question?
19 THE WITNESS: I think so.
20 MR. SPRADLIN: Okay.
22 BY MS. MONK:
23 Q. Can you please explain what type of religious
24 services you have attended.
25 MR. SPRADLIN: You're talking about other
21
1 religious services now?
2 MS. MONK: Yes.
3 MR. SPRADLIN: Besides what he's already
4 testified about?
5 MS. MONK: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: I was baptized by the bishop in
8 Syracuse, New York.
9 BY MS. MONK:
10 Q. What age were you when you were baptized?
11 A. I must say I don't recall exactly.
12 Q. Were you a child when you were baptized?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Were you in your twenties when you were
15 baptized?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you in your thirties when you were
18 baptized?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were you in your teens when you were baptized?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Were you a baby when you were baptized?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How long have you been teaching Advanced
25 Placement European History?
22
1 A. I'm sorry, but I wasn't done answering the
2 previous question.
3 Q. Please, go ahead.
4 A. I was married in the National Cathedral by
5 Bishop Edwin Walker.
6 My children were baptized -- check that. My
7 daughter was baptized in the National Cathedral.
8 I've attended the weddings of several of my
9 friends over the years, and those weddings were held in
10 churches, part of a church service.
11 I've also attended baptisms of several
12 children.
13 I've also spoken at several funerals.
14 To the best of my recollection, that would be
15 it.
16 Q. How would you define "Christianity"?
17 A. I think a Christian is somebody who would try
18 and act as Jesus would.
19 Q. Do you believe that Jesus Christ died on the
20 cross for your sins?
21 A. The evidence is strong that he did.
22 Q. Do you pray on a weekly basis?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you pray each day?
25 A. Yes.
23
1 Q. Do you pray with your children?
2 MR. SPRADLIN: That question I don't think is
3 relevant and I think that's an invasion of his privacy
4 with regard to what his children do or don't do, so,
5 Doctor, you don't have to answer that question unless
6 you want to.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't want to answer.
8 MS. MONK: Dan, you're instructing him not to
9 answer the question?
10 MR. SPRADLIN: I am. I don't think it remotely
11 has any relevance in this case.
12 MS. MONK: You asked the same question of Chad
13 and your associate asked the same question of Teresa and
14 Bill, I believe.
15 MR. SPRADLIN: They are the plaintiffs in the
16 lawsuit.
17 MS. MONK: And he's the defendant in the
18 lawsuit. He needs to answer the question.
19 MR. SPRADLIN: I have made my objection, it's
20 an invasion of privacy of both him and his children and
21 I've instructed him not to answer the question.
22 What's your next question?
23 MS. MONK: Dan, we're going to end up stopping
24 this deposition and continuing on another day and going
25 to court over this.
24
1 MR. SPRADLIN: Well, let me suggest to you that
2 if you have any other questions that you should ask them
3 today, because if you want to terminate the deposition
4 over this question, you certainly are entitled to do
5 that. My position will be that if you didn't have any
6 other questions you want to ask, you're not going to ask
7 any other questions on any other subject matters. If
8 you do, please ask those questions now.
9 MS. MONK: I didn't say I was terminating it
10 right now. I'm instructing you that you should not be
11 instructing him not to answer on things that are
12 perfectly relevant and well within the scope and
13 questions that you asked of the plaintiffs in the
14 lawsuit.
15 MR. SPRADLIN: We may have a difference of
16 opinion as to whether this is a proper question or not.
17 I don't agree with you.
18 MS. MONK: Was it a proper question when you
19 asked it?
20 MR. SPRADLIN: It was a proper question when I
21 asked it.
22 MS. MONK: And what is the difference between
23 the questions?
24 MR. SPRADLIN: My job is not to educate you on
25 how to take your deposition, and I'm not prepared to do
25
1 that. If you have another question, please ask it.
2 BY MS. MONK:
3 Q. Dr. Corbett, did you talk about the lawsuit
4 involving Mr. Peloza in your Advanced Placement European
5 History class that Chad was a student in?
6 A. I believe so.
7 Q. Do you remember what you told the students
8 about the lawsuit of Mr. Peloza?
9 A. Not particularly.
10 Q. Do you remember anything that was discussed
11 that day in class regarding Mr. Peloza?
12 A. Not specifically.
13 Q. How long have you been teaching Advanced
14 Placement European History?
15 A. Perhaps 16 years, I can't be certain.
16 Q. What other subjects are you teaching this year?
17 A. Advanced Placement Art History.
18 Q. What other subjects did you teach last year?
19 A. European History and Advanced Placement Art
20 History. I'm also this semester teaching a World
21 History class.
22 Q. What would you say is your favorite subject to
23 teach?
24 A. European History.
25 Q. And why is that?
26
1 A. I think the information in European History and
2 the curriculum of European History is the most vital in
3 terms of preparing a student to compete at especially an
4 elite college or university.
5 Q. Do you encourage discussions in your classroom
6 between yourself and the students?
7 A. Sometimes.
8 Q. How often do you encourage discussions between
9 yourself and the students?
10 A. Over what time period?
11 Q. In a given year, how often do you attempt to
12 encourage discussion?
13 A. Maybe two or three times a week, maybe four
14 times a week.
15 Q. How do you encourage discussion in your
16 classrooms?
17 A. I use what's called the Socratic method.
18 Q. What do you mean by "Socratic method"?
19 A. I pose questions.
20 Q. Do you pose questions about the curriculum?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you pose questions about topics that are not
23 part of the curriculum?
24 A. Not often.
25 Q. How much student participation occurs in a
27
1 typical class period for one of your Advanced Placement
2 European History classes?
3 A. Well, I hope a great deal.
4 Q. Does a great deal actually occur?
5 A. I presume so. They do rather well on the exam
6 collectively.
7 Q. Do you judge your success as a teacher on how
8 the students do on the AP exam?
9 A. In part.
10 Q. How else do you judge your -- judge your
11 success as a teacher?
12 A. I look to whether or not they have begun to
13 think critically.
14 Q. How do you measure whether they have begun to
15 think critically?
16 A. It's very difficult.
17 Q. What does the word "provocative" mean to you?
18 A. Something provocative is something that is
19 designed to elicit a response.
20 Q. Is it your goal to be provocative in your
21 Advanced Placement European History classes?
22 A. In part.
23 Q. Is it your goal to be provocative in the
24 Advanced Placement European History class that Chad
25 Farnan took or was a student in?
28
1 A. In part.
2 Q. How are you provocative in class?
3 A. I ask questions.
4 Q. Do you allow the students to answer the
5 questions or do you answer the questions yourself?
6 A. Are those my only choices?
7 Q. If there is a third option, please state it.
8 A. Sometimes my questions are rhetorical,
9 sometimes the students answer the questions. I avoid
10 answering the questions if I can.
11 Q. Do you think it's appropriate to talk to
12 students in your Advanced Placement European History
13 classes about Viagra?
14 A. It depends on the context.
15 Q. Have you ever talked to students in your
16 Advanced Placement European History classes about
17 Viagra?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember why you chose to talk to your
20 students about Viagra?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Why was that?
23 A. I believe there was a front page story in The
24 Los Angeles Times about recently discovered side effects
25 to the drug, and ironically those side effects were
29
1 really quite similar to the irrational claims by
2 Victorians for having too much sex.
3 Q. And did you tie those two things together when
4 you were talking about Viagra in your Advanced Placement
5 European History class?
6 A. I don't recall exactly. I believe I did. Now
7 that I think about it, I'm confident I did.
8 Q. How did you tie them together, how did you tie
9 those two concepts together in your Advanced Placement
10 European History class?
11 A. I believe I pointed out the irony.
12 Q. Do you always teach about the rational claims
13 by Victorians -- the irrational claims by Victorians for
14 having too much sex in your Advanced Placement European
15 History class?
16 A. What do you mean by "always"?
17 Q. Year to year, do you typically teach about the
18 irrational claims by Victorians for having too much sex
19 in your Advanced Placement European History classes?
20 A. I would say in general, yes.
21 Q. Is that part of the state curriculum for
22 Advanced Placement European History?
23 A. Well, do you mean specifically that particular
24 topic?
25 Q. Yes.
30
1 A. No. I'm sorry, but the general area of
2 Victorian morality is part of the curriculum.
3 Q. What does the phrase "fundamentalist Christian"
4 mean to you?
5 A. I would say that's somebody who believes that
6 the Bible is literally true, is factually correct and
7 literally true.
8 Q. Would you describe yourself as a fundamentalist
9 Christian?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What does the phrase "Islamic fundamentalist"
12 mean to you?
13 A. I think it's a Muslim who believes that the
14 Qur'an, as well the teachings of the mullahs and,
15 perhaps -- I'm not sure here, I may be confusing my
16 religious books -- the Haditha, is collectively the Word
17 of God and therefore factually correct.
18 I may be wrong about that.
19 Q. Do you think it is irrational to be a
20 fundamentalist Christian?
21 A. Well, yes.
22 Q. Why do you think that's irrational?
23 A. To my understanding -- you can correct me if
24 I'm wrong -- the basis of belief for a fundamentalist
25 Christian is faith.
31
1 Q. And you think faith is irrational?
2 A. Well, we're going into linguistics here. As a
3 matter of fact, believing things because they are proven
4 to be true is what I understand to be rational
5 discourse, rational thinking.
6 Believing things because you have faith they're
7 true, you're not basing what you believe on what is
8 provable by the laws of science or by the standards of
9 scholarship, shall we say.
10 Q. Do you think students in your Advanced
11 Placement European History classes know that you believe
12 that it is irrational to be a fundamentalist Christian?
13 A. In the sense that I just explained, I think
14 they understand that that sort of belief is based in
15 faith.
16 Q. What does the word "conservative" mean to you?
17 A. A conservative is one who seeks to conserve or
18 preserve.
19 Q. Would you describe yourself as conservative,
20 politically speaking?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Would you describe yourself -- strike that.
23 What does the word "liberal" mean to you?
24 A. In what sense?
25 Q. What does the phrase "liberal politics" mean to
32
1 you?
2 A. "Liberal politics," that's a very broad
3 question. It would be very difficult to answer, it
4 encompasses such a wide range of views. If you could be
5 more specific.
6 Q. Do you talk about conservatives in your
7 Advanced Placement European History class?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And when you use that term, what are you
10 referring to?
11 A. Generally those who seek to preserve an
12 existing sociopolitical economic system.
13 Q. And you would describe yourself as a
14 conservative who seeks to preserve an existing
15 sociopolitical economic system?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you have posters hanging in your classroom,
18 Dr. Corbett?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How many posters do you have hanging in your
21 classroom?
22 A. I'm not sure exactly how many.
23 Q. What are on the posters that are hanging in
24 your classroom?
25 A. A fairly wide variety of things.
33
1 Q. Can you please list what you remember.
2 A. Yes. There's a poster of Gamal Abdel Nasser in
3 the upper right-hand corner. He was an Arab nationalist
4 in the 1950s, Egyptian president and founder of the
5 United Arab Republic.
6 And next to that poster -- again, I'm not
7 entirely sure, but I think next to that poster is a
8 poster I took off a wall in Beirut of Sheikh Fadlallah,
9 who I think he's currently the spiritual leader of the
10 Hizbullah.
11 And next to that I have a poster that makes a
12 plea for a minister to Parliament, Bobby Sands, who was,
13 when the poster was made, he was on a hunger strike.
14 That poster I believe is signed by his sister.
15 Next to that I believe there's a poster in
16 Irish of support for the blanket men, which predated
17 Bobby Sands. I believe I picked that up in Belfast.
18 Below that I believe there's a poster that a
19 student put up supporting gay rights.
20 Next to that I believe there's a vintage 1967
21 or so poster from Canada against the Vietnam war.
22 Next to that I believe -- I'm certain there is
23 a McCain-Palin poster. And below that I believe there's
24 an Obama-Biden poster.
25 And then moving around the room, towards the
34
1 back, the next poster is a -- a Bush-Cheney poster from
2 a few years ago.
3 Next to that is a poster from Ireland, which
4 is -- I don't recall the exact date but it was sometime
5 in the last six or seven years, and it's a poster
6 complaining about Irish government complicity in
7 rendition and the war in Iraq.
8 To the left of that there was -- when Chad was
9 there, I believe, a poster from the -- or honoring or
10 about the Armenian genocide.
11 And next to that, it's not a poster, it's a
12 photograph that I took of student Jessica Lesotwitz, and
13 she's standing at the -- at one of the gates, I forget
14 which one, of Dachau, and she's in silhouette, and the
15 gate above her head, which says "Arbeit macht frei," I
16 don't speak German but I understand that to mean "Work
17 makes free."
18 And again moving around the room, there are
19 several other photographs of students or works of art.
20 And then at the front of the room there are two
21 poster-style photographs of a speech made by Eamon de
22 Valera, the first president of Ireland.
23 And beneath these there's a poster of an
24 Iranian girl, she must be six or seven years old, she's
25 in full chador and she's carrying -- she's carrying an
35
1 AK-47. I don't know what the Persian words say on the
2 poster. I took it off a wall in Beirut.
3 There's also a poster, again, I took off a wall
4 in Beirut -- I forgot, it's on the wall where the other
5 Irish posters are when I first started explaining
6 this -- of -- it's an Iranian poster of Menachem Begin,
7 and it is a poster that honors what they call the
8 martyrs in the fight against Israel.
9 And there is a -- a poster of the Ayatollah
10 Khomeini also on the front wall, again that I took off a
11 wall in Beirut, but I can't read the Persian so I don't
12 know exactly what it says.
13 I think that's it, but I could be missing
14 something.
15 Q. It's a lot of posters.
16 Can you please describe the poster supporting
17 gay rights?
18 A. Yes. It's small, I would say 8 inches by --
19 maybe 8-by-11. And it has a -- a drawing of a student
20 on it, who is holding up her fist, but I don't recall
21 the words.
22 Q. It does have words on it?
23 A. It does, yeah.
24 Q. You don't remember what the words are?
25 A. I'm -- you know, I'm not certain, but I think
36
1 this poster speaks to the tragically high suicide rate
2 of gay and lesbian students.
3 Q. Can you describe the McCain-Palin poster?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Go ahead.
6 A. I believe it's standard size for a political
7 poster, it's rather large. It has a -- well, it had,
8 but I took it out -- it had a -- a steel or iron thing
9 for planting it in a front yard, and I think it's -- I
10 think I'm safe to say it's red, white and blue, and it
11 says in large letters "McCain-Palin."
12 Q. Will you please describe the Bush-Cheney
13 poster.
14 A. Yes. It's, again, about the same size as the
15 Bush -- as the McCain-Palin poster, I believe it's also
16 red, white and blue. It's different in one respect, and
17 that is it's a double-sided poster, and it just says
18 "Bush-Cheney" instead of "McCain-Palin."
19 Q. Are there any other words on the poster?
20 A. I don't think so.
21 Q. Why did you choose those posters to be put up
22 in your classroom?
23 MR. SPRADLIN: Which posters, all of them that
24 he's described?
25 ///
37
1 BY MS. MONK:
2 Q. All of them, generally. Is there a theme to
3 those posters that is relevant to Advanced Placement
4 European History?
5 A. Some of them.
6 Q. Why did you choose to allow the student to put
7 up the gay rights poster?
8 A. Well, I allow any student to put up any poster
9 that isn't inappropriate.
10 Q. Are there any other posters in the classroom
11 that a student put up?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Which posters are those?
14 A. The Bush-Cheney poster. The -- there's a Kerry
15 poster too, I forgot about that, a Kerry poster.
16 There's one that shows -- I can't recall
17 exactly what it is, but it's making fun of the fact that
18 you have two people running who are both members of
19 Skull and Bones, both Kerry and Bush were members.
20 And the McCain-Palin poster was put up by a
21 student.
22 The Obama poster was put up by a student.
23 Over the years, there have been various others.
24 Q. Will you please describe how you assess student
25 performance in your class.
38
1 A. I test them, I have them write.
2 Q. Are your students' grades based on the tests
3 and the writings?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you often change the students' grades after
6 the semester has ended?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Why do you do that?
9 A. I change grades based on their scores on the
10 Advanced Placement exam, and occasionally for other
11 reasons.
12 Q. What other reasons would you change a student's
13 grade for?
14 A. Occasionally I make mistakes and I change
15 grades to correct them.
16 Q. Are the students' grades based solely on their
17 performance on the AP exam?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What other factors are considered in
20 determining their grade?
21 A. Tests and quizzes.
22 Q. Do you consider in-class behavior in
23 determining their grade?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you consider comments made in class in
39
1 considering -- in determining their grade?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you take into account whether they
4 participate in class discussion in determining their
5 grade?
6 A. No.
7 Q. How would you characterize Chad's performance
8 as a student in your class?
9 A. Average to a bit below average.
10 Q. And why would you characterize his performance
11 as average or below average?
12 A. Well, primarily from his scores on tests, but
13 also from the knowledge that he failed to do the work
14 that I assigned over the summer in preparation for the
15 class.
16 Q. Do you know how many students in the class that
17 Chad was a student in did the work over the summer that
18 you assigned?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you ever had a student ask you to use an
21 audio recorder to record a class lecture?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How many students have asked you to use an
24 audio recorder to record a class lecture?
25 A. That I recall, two.
40
1 Q. What are the names of those two students?
2 A. One was Chad Farnan, and the other I believe
3 was a student whose last name was Ryan, but I don't
4 recall her first name.
5 Q. When did Ryan ask you to record a class
6 lecture?
7 A. I don't recall exactly. Must have been four or
8 five years ago, I'm not sure.
9 Q. Did you allow Ryan to record the class lecture
10 at that time?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know of any other students who have
13 recorded class lectures without asking your approval?
14 A. No.
15 Q. When did Chad Farnan ask you to record the
16 class lecture?
17 A. I don't recall the exact day.
18 Q. Was it at the beginning of the class?
19 A. Which class?
20 Q. Of the class that he was a student in.
21 A. Do you mean at the beginning of the school
22 year?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Don't recall exactly. I think we were into the
25 school year a few weeks, but I can't be certain.
41
1 Q. And where did this conversation take place?
2 A. In front of the class.
3 Q. Were there other students around?
4 A. Oh, he was speaking from his seat.
5 Q. And what did he ask you specifically?
6 A. Well, I can't recall if he actually asked or if
7 he just made the statement that he wanted to record me,
8 so I don't know if it was really a question.
9 Q. And what did you say?
10 A. I said no.
11 Q. Why did you say no to his question or his
12 statement?
13 A. Well, as I explained to him then, part of
14 taking a college level course is learning how to take
15 notes. Experience has taught me that people who record
16 lectures often believe in their naivete that it's a sort
17 of easy way to take notes.
18 But most high school students, in particular, I
19 suppose, student athletes, find that they simply don't
20 have enough time to effectively attend class twice by
21 listening to a complete lecture.
22 Moreover, the note-taking skill is a very
23 important one for students to develop if they plan on
24 being successful at -- at a quality institution. And
25 most of my students do attend prestigious, rigorous
42
1 institutions.
2 I think that's it.
3 Q. Do you know of any students in particular who
4 remembers Chad asking this or making the statement
5 regarding the recorder?
6 A. I don't have any particular knowledge that any
7 student would remember that particular conversation.
8 Q. Have you talked to any students about the
9 conversation since the lawsuit was filed?
11 Q. Are you aware that it can be a violation of the
12 California Education Code for a student to record a
13 class lecture?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did you learn that it can be a violation
16 of the California Education Code for a student to record
17 a class lecture?
18 A. Don't recall exactly.
19 Q. Did you know it in the fall of 2007 when Chad
20 Farnan was in your class?
21 A. I believe I had read it before. Whether or not
22 it was part of my store of general knowledge, I'm not so
23 sure.
24 Q. Did you tell Chad Farnan that it was a
25 violation or could be a violation of the California
43
1 Education Code for a student to record a class lecture
2 when he asked?
3 A. I don't believe so. I think I just told him
4 that he would be better served by learning to take notes
5 and so I was going to deny his request.
6 Q. Did you ever see Chad record a class lecture?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You never saw the recorder on his backpack?
9 A. Never.
10 Q. You never saw the recorder on his desk?
11 A. Never.
12 Q. Were there any other students in Chad's class
13 who recorded the class that you're aware of?
14 A. No.
15 MS. MONK: Let's take a five-minute break.
16 THE REPORTER: Okay to go off the record?
17 MR. SPRADLIN: Yes.
18 (A recess was taken from 10:57 to 11:15.)
19 (Ms. Robles joins the deposition.)
20 BY MS. MONK:
21 Q. Dr. Corbett, do you have any reason to believe
22 that Chad was trying to hide the recorder as he was
23 recording your class?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Why do you believe that?
44
1 A. Well, I wouldn't say that it's an affirmative
2 observation; it's more of a note that -- I knew where I
3 had of course told him not to record. And I'm -- and
4 I'm very active in a classroom, I walk around a great
5 deal. I even stand on the coffee table at the front of
6 the room regularly. And I'm fairly confident that were
7 it in plain view, I would have noticed it, but I did
8 not.
9 Q. You testified earlier that you pray daily. Who
10 do you pray to?
11 (Mr. Tyler leaves the deposition.)
12 THE WITNESS: I pray to a personal God.
13 BY MS. MONK:
14 Q. During the 2007-2008 school year, did any
15 parents of a student in your Advanced Placement European
16 History class complain to you verbally about the class?
17 MR. SPRADLIN: Ms. Reporter, could you read
18 back the pending question.
19 (The record was read by the court
20 reporter as follows:
21 "Q. During the 2007-2008 school year,
22 did any parents of a student in your
23 Advanced Placement European History
24 class complain to you verbally about
25 the class?")
45
1 THE WITNESS: I believe so.
2 BY MS. MONK:
3 Q. Which parents complained to you about the class
4 during that time period?
5 A. I don't recall the name.
6 Q. Do you recall what they complained about?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what was that, what did they complain
9 about?
10 A. They -- you know, the truth is, I wouldn't even
11 call it a complaint; I would say they expressed a
12 concern. Even more than that, they asked me to ensure
13 that I was -- their words -- "fair and balanced."
14 (Mr. Tyler rejoins the deposition.)
15 BY MS. MONK:
16 Q. And how did you respond to their requests that
17 you be fair and balanced?
18 A. Well, it was quite difficult to respond
19 adequately because, rather than come to me with a
20 specific complaint by calling me at home or coming to
21 school -- and all the parents had my home phone number
22 and they all had my email -- this particular parent
23 chose a very crowded and very -- ooh, a time frame that
24 was very small during Back to School Night when there
25 were, I'm guessing now, but probably 30 other parents in
46
1 the room, and I was pressed for time.
2 At the same time I did not want to -- I did not
3 want to leave the impression with the other parents
4 there that what I felt was inherent in their statement,
5 that somehow I'm neither fair nor balanced, or either, I
6 did not want to leave the impression that I was
7 reluctant to answer that question or that I in any way
8 accepted the sum and substance of their question as
9 something that could be credible.
10 So I responded -- I wish I had had more time,
11 but I responded too quickly.
12 Q. And how did you respond to them, what did you
13 say?
14 A. I said that "fair and balanced" as a phrase had
15 become popular through Fox News, which has the
16 reputation for being rather partisan, and further, that
17 as a scholar and as a teacher, my goal was to be fair
18 and accurate.
19 And I went on to point out in this context that
20 the word "balanced" is a matter of opinion. I gave them
21 the example of the Holocaust. I said, for example, I
22 said -- I can't remember the exact words, but what I
23 said was what would be the balance to a statement that
24 6 million Jews were murdered by Hitler, should I give --
25 and the Nazis? Should I give equal time or some time or
47
1 how much time to a view that I know to be false but
2 which is held by many people, that the Holocaust did not
3 happen?
4 So my goal as a scholar is to be fair and
5 accurate.
6 Q. Do you feel that you met your goal to be fair
7 and accurate in the Advanced Placement European History
8 class that Chad was a student in?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was the parent that you had this discussion
11 with Lindley Rosa?
13 Q. Did that same --
14 A. No, I do recall.
15 I recall it was a man, so if Lilly Rosa is a
16 woman, I think so, then it was not her.
17 Q. Did you receive an email from that same parent
18 regarding the class?
20 Q. Do you recall showing an email that you had
21 received to your entire class from a parent?
22 A. I do not recall.
23 Allow me to expand on that just a little bit.
24 I use a projector, which projects anything that's on my
25 computer. There have been very few times, less than you
48
1 could count on one hand, where something that I was
2 working on was inadvertently displayed.
3 And so when I say I don't recall whether or not
4 that specific item was displayed, I'm not denying that
5 there's a possibility it may have been; frankly I doubt
6 it.
8 parents of a student in your AP European History class
9 complain to you in writing about the class?
11 Q. Do you recall if during that time period any
12 parents of a student in your AP European History class
13 complained to you verbally about anything you said
14 during the class?
15 A. I don't think so, I don't recall any.
16 Q. Do you recall if any parents of a student in
17 your AP European History class during that time
18 complained to you in writing about anything you said
19 during a class?
20 A. I don't think so, but I don't -- I don't recall
21 any.
22 Q. Did any parents of a student in your AP
23 European History class that year express concern about
24 the class in any form, other than the one instance that
25 we just discussed?
49
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How many parents?
3 A. I couldn't say exactly.
4 Q. Is it more than five?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. More than ten?
7 A. Probably.
8 Q. More than 15?
9 A. I would say in that vicinity somewhere.
10 Q. What did these parents express concern about?
11 A. Primarily that their children were not
12 achieving the grades that they had anticipated.
13 Q. Is that the only topic that the parents
14 expressed concern about, other than the fair and
15 balanced comment?
16 A. Well, when you say "concern," would you -- I
17 wonder if the word "concern" also means one could be
18 concerned about something and not be particularly --
19 "concerned" means -- as a word it means interested in,
20 and in that sense, yes.
21 Q. What other topics did parents discuss with you
22 during the 2007-2008 school year?
23 A. Many parents thanked me for motivating their
24 children to begin to discuss, care about, read about,
25 and pay attention to what was going on in the world.
50
1 Q. Can you give me the names --
2 A. No.
3 Q. -- of those parents?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did any of those parents thank you in writing?
6 A. Over the years many have in writing. Most, I
7 suppose, have been verbal, but I -- I think probably
8 there have been some this year and last year that
9 expressed that in writing.
10 Q. Did you give those documents to your attorney?
11 A. I believe so, yeah.
12 Q. You stated that over the years parents have
13 thanked you in writing. Are there -- have there been
14 circumstances over the years where parents have made
15 complaints in writing about the class?
16 A. I'll answer that question this way: I don't
17 recall specific complaints.
18 I do recall the -- the fact that any parent who
19 has complained verbally or in writing, which I don't
20 recall, that any parent who has come to me with concerns
21 over the years has, with one or two possible exceptions,
22 gone away reasonably satisfied. They have had their
23 concerns belied, reduced, eliminated.
24 And the complaint process specified for the
25 school requires that a written complaint be filed, and
51
1 then from there if the teacher and the student and the
2 student's parents cannot resolve that complaint, the
3 complaint goes to the assistant principal for a meeting
4 with the parent and the teacher to try and resolve the
5 complaint.
6 I don't recall exactly the subject, but in 20
7 years I think I've probably managed to get to that
8 second stage where you meet with the parent and -- and
9 the vice principal maybe twice.
10 I've never had a complaint go further than that
11 in all 20 years, and in those two instances, after
12 listening to the vice principal, I think in both cases
13 the parent went away reasonably satisfied with the
14 explanation.
15 Q. Do you remember the names of those parents?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember the name of the vice principal
18 that you met with in either of those circumstances?
19 A. I think one of them might have been Tom
20 Ressler. I can't be certain of the other. We change
21 vice principals quite often.
22 Q. Do you remember when those meetings occurred?
23 A. With regard to Tom, it would have been sometime
24 in the past seven or eight years. And the other one
25 must have been longer ago than that but I can't recall
52
1 exactly.
2 Q. Do you remember the subject matter of the
3 complaint the parent had in the meeting with
4 Mr. Ressler?
5 A. I believe it was over grading policy.
6 Q. And do you remember the subject matter of the
7 complaint from the previous meeting?
8 A. I believe that -- it's hard to recall exactly.
9 I don't think I could characterize it.
10 Q. You testified earlier that the parents'
11 concerns or complaints were either reduced or eliminated
12 following your meeting -- following your discussions
13 with them.
14 Why do you believe that that's true?
15 A. Primarily because there's a posted -- right
16 next to the door in the room there's a posted complaint
17 procedure, and in those meetings I try and take care to
18 inform them that if we haven't reached a satisfactory
19 resolution that they have the right to, using the
20 process, take it to the next level. And save the ones I
21 mentioned, no one ever did.
22 So it's a presumption that they went away
23 happy, although many of them actually said so over the
24 years.
25 Q. Have you ever had a parent of one of the
53
1 students in one of your classes complain about the
2 topics that you discuss or something that was said in
3 the class?
4 A. I think so.
5 Q. Do you remember what they complained about?
6 A. It's, again, difficult, but I think I could
7 give a general area. One of the continuing themes in
8 any introductory history class, and that's what this is,
9 is helping students to identify the difference between
10 what historians believe is strongly supported by
11 scholarly evidence and what is what scholars call
12 historical mythology. It's part -- it's part of
13 critical thinking to teach students not to simply accept
14 what some people call "common knowledge" as fact, but to
15 analyze it with the tools of scholarship to determine
16 whether or not a given historical -- a historical event
17 or a historical purported fact reaches the standard that
18 would be acceptable by a critically thinking scholar.
19 Q. Can you give me an example of what you call
20 historical mythology?
21 A. Sure.
22 Q. Go ahead.
23 A. Well, I regularly use the American involvement
24 in World War II to illustrate this particular issue,
25 although there are many examples, but World War II
54
1 provides I think a very good example, because there's
2 never been a war more mythologized than World War II and
3 the American involvement in it. And there's probably no
4 better example of commonly held beliefs that, on
5 analysis by the standards of historical scholarship,
6 fail to meet the standard for fact.
7 I often begin that particular lesson by asking
8 the students simply why did we fight Hitler. And the
9 answers tend to be in line with the generally accepted
10 historical mythology, which is, they'll say, we fought
11 Hitler to save the Jews, or we went to war with Hitler
12 to save Europe from tyranny, or we went to war to stop a
13 madman.
14 In truth, we never did declare war on Germany.
15 Germany declared war on us. And worse, and if you ask
16 me, to our shame, we had the opportunity to at least
17 slow down the machinery of death in the concentration
18 camps, and for whatever reason we did not do that.
19 In that same vein, even as Hitler was rising to
20 power, again, often the assumption being that America
21 opposed Hitler from the very beginning because --
22 because the values of fascism so dramatically contradict
23 our own values. That assumption also is not really
24 supported by the facts to the extent that, for example,
25 when both Hitler and Mussolini supported the fascist
55
1 takeover of Spain, the United States -- all of the
2 democracies were called upon to help the democratic
3 government of Spain, and we did not.
4 Q. Do you remember what specific --
5 A. I'm sorry, I would like to finish the rest of
6 that answer.
7 In addition, with regard to the mythology of
8 World War II, America came fairly late to that war, and
9 I'm in no way discounting the contribution of those
10 great American soldiers. Of course a great many gave
11 their lives. But Americans often -- and, again, you
12 know, this really gets at the issue of point of view.
13 You know, from our point of view, we were the heros who
14 won the war.
15 But I think it's important for Americans, and
16 in particular students in a European History class, to
17 understand that, from the point of view of the Russians,
18 for example, it was Russia who defeated the Nazis.
19 After all, I can't give you the exact ratio, but I
20 believe the ratio would be something approaching eight
21 or nine to one, the number of German soldiers killed by
22 Soviets as opposed to those killed by Americans.
23 In the Soviets' view, from their point of view,
24 they were the ones who won the war.
25 And in -- certainly in terms of territory, if
56
1 you consider that the Wehrmacht reached from Leningrad
2 or St. Petersburg in the north, to Moscow in the middle
3 of the country, all the way down to the outskirts of
4 Stalingrad, Hitler's army had taken 5-, 6,000 miles of
5 territory, and the Red Army rolled them all the way back
6 to Berlin.
7 And, in fact, the Red Army took Berlin at the
8 cost of over a million men. They lost, just in the
9 battle for Berlin, more than a quarter of a million more
10 soldiers than we lost in the entire war. Once more,
11 they took the capital city.
12 And so from the Russian point of view, they won
13 the war, they were the primary actors in defeating the
14 Nazis. Americans do tend to be a little forgetful of
15 the contribution the Russians made in that regard, and I
16 don't want you to think in any sense that I admire
17 Stalin and his minions, just the fact that they killed a
18 lot more Nazis than Americans did.
19 Q. Do you have anything else to say with regard to
20 that question?
21 A. I think that's enough.
22 Q. When parents complained to you regarding
23 something that you said in class, what exact topic were
24 they complaining about you discussing or what
25 specifically were they complaining about?
57
1 MR. SPRADLIN: Question is vague and compound.
2 Could you reformulate that question?
3 MS. MONK: No. He can answer it.
4 MR. SPRADLIN: I don't have -- if you
5 understand that question, yeah, you can answer it.
6 THE WITNESS: I can't say that I understand the
7 question.
8 MS. MONK: Dan, don't testify for him, just
9 make your objection and let it go.
10 Q. You testified earlier that parents complained
11 about what was said in the classroom. What specifically
12 were the parents complaining about?
13 MR. SPRADLIN: I don't think that's his
14 testimony.
15 But if you can answer the question, go ahead
16 and answer it.
17 THE WITNESS: I think over the years parents
18 have complained about the topic we were just discussing,
19 the contrast between what they believe as common
20 knowledge and how, using historical standards, that
21 common knowledge is often demonstrated to be either
22 weakly supported or not supported at all.
23 And of course if the parent believes it and it
24 is contradicted in the classroom, sometimes they ask for
25 an explanation and I give it to them.
58
1 BY MS. MONK:
2 Q. Do you remember any specific topics that a
3 parent believed to be true and you contradicted in the
4 classroom and they later asked for an explanation?
6 Q. Do you know how many parents have complained
7 about the contrast between what they believe is common
8 knowledge and what you contradicted later in the
9 classroom?
10 A. No. Not many.
11 Q. More than five?
12 A. Probably, in 20 years.
13 Q. More than ten?
14 A. Probably, in 20 years.
15 Q. More than 15?
16 A. You know, we can go on with this for a while,
17 but the truth is, I don't even know that there were 15.
19 student in your Advanced Placement European History
20 class complain to you about the class?
21 A. About the class, no.
22 Q. During that school year did any student in your
23 Advanced Placement European History class complain about
24 anything that you said during the class?
25 A. Complain, I don't recall.
59
1 Q. Did any student during that Advanced Placement
2 European History class express concern about something
3 that you had said in the class?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What student was that?
6 A. I don't recall a name.
7 Q. What did the student express concern about?
8 A. Well, I can't recall everything by any stretch
9 of the imagination, but as I explain to students and
10 parents in a letter that I send to them over the summer,
11 I explain that when I'm talking about current events and
12 when I talk about current events, I do my best to relate
13 them to European History.
14 I do go out of my way to be provocative with
15 the goal -- and it's in the letter -- of getting the
16 kids to go home with something to talk over with their
17 parents, getting them motivated enough to care enough to
18 want to talk it over. And in those conversations
19 sometimes students will say, for example, that --
20 that's -- that's crazy, or something like that.
21 Q. How many students complained during the
22 2007-2008 school year?
23 MR. SPRADLIN: It's asked and answered. He
24 wasn't aware of complaints; your last question was
25 "concerns."
60
1 BY MS. MONK:
2 Q. How many students expressed concerns in the
3 2007-2008 school year?
4 A. About what?
5 Q. About what was stated in the classroom by you?
6 A. Again, I'm not trying to parse words here, I'm
7 not getting into what is "is," but when you say
8 "concerns," do you mean concerns meaning that they were
9 negative about it, or do you mean that they requested
10 further information, or what do you mean?
11 Q. Both.
12 A. Many students.
13 Q. More than ten?
14 A. Certainly.
15 Q. More than 20?
16 A. I would guess so.
17 Q. But you don't remember any names of even one
18 student who expressed concern out of the 10 or 20
19 students?
20 A. I do remember one because he continues to come
21 around. I actually remember two, now that I think about
22 it. Michael Zona and -- can't remember his first name,
23 a kid named Cutsforth.
24 Q. What did Michael Zona express concern about?
25 A. Now that I think about it, Michael Zona wasn't
61
1 in European History, he was in Art History -- actually
2 he's in Art History now. He used to come into my sixth
3 grade class and just sit in because he enjoyed the class
4 after having taken it the previous year.
5 Q. And what about Cutsforth, I believe you said
6 his name was?
7 A. Cutsforth.
8 Q. What did he express concern about regarding the
9 class?
10 A. He's just a great kid. He is a person who had
11 a fairly -- he had transferred from Georgia, I believe,
12 and -- and without slandering the Georgia school system,
13 they are perhaps a bit more prone in the south in
14 general, and perhaps in Georgia in particular, but I
15 don't know, to embrace mythology.
16 And so some of the things that I would say he
17 would find contradicting his beliefs as the way things
18 were. He still regularly comes to my room to discuss
19 these issues, and I've given him several books over the
20 years, the last three years. One of the books was
21 Howard Zinn, I believe, Lies My Teacher Told Me -- maybe
22 it wasn't Zinn, I don't remember exactly, but it is a
23 compilation of commonly held historical myths that upon
24 examination turn out to be false.
25 I believe I also gave him a book titled, I
62
1 think, Lies Across America. That same author went to
2 historical monuments all over the United States and
3 investigated whether or not the statements made on the
4 monuments could be supported by historical
5 investigation, using scholarly standards.
6 And he found, for example, that often they were
7 not supported by the history but instead served the
8 interest of some political, religious, or economic group
9 that in many cases actually funded the monument. And
10 those monuments served to sometimes create and support
11 mythology.
12 Q. Has Mr. Cutsforth complained about anything
13 specific that you stated in class?
14 A. I don't recall. I can say that whatever he has
15 said to me over the years that he found challenging, he
16 has gone away with an understanding of why I said what I
17 said and how often the language that I used was precise
18 enough that his misimpression was based on his lack of
19 understanding of the language, precision of language,
20 and my -- you know, if I don't mind -- if you don't mind
21 me breaking my arm, my rather careful scholarly
22 language.
24 school district employee inform you that a parent had
25 complained to the school district about one of your
63
1 classes?
2 A. I can't remember if it was Deni, who is our
3 current principal, or Tom, but yes.
4 Q. Do you remember what the parent complained
5 about?
6 A. Well, yes, I think it's contained in the
7 complaint that the Farnans filed.
8 Q. Did anyone other than the Farnans complain to
9 the school district during the 2007-2008 school year --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- that you're aware of?
12 During the 2007-2008 school year, did you
13 receive any emails from parents in your -- of students
14 in your Advanced Placement European History class?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you give those documents to your attorney?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember the content of those emails?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you remember how many emails you received?
21 A. No.
22 Q. During the 2007-2008 school year, did you
23 receive any emails from students in your Advanced
24 Placement European History class?
25 A. Do you mean students in my class at that time?
64
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. And not at any other time?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I'm sure I did.
5 Q. Do you remember how many?
7 Q. Do you remember the content of any of those
8 emails?
9 A. I can't recall specifically, but, you know, is
10 there a test Tuesday, what's the assignment for this
11 week, those kinds of things.
12 (Mr. Hersh leaves the deposition.)
13 MS. MONK: All right. Why don't we go off the
14 record and take a break for lunch.
15 (Mr. Tyler leaves the deposition.)
16 (At the hour of 12:05 p.m., a luncheon
17 recess was taken, the deposition to be
18 resumed at 1:05 p.m.)
19 ///
20 ///
21 ///
22 ///
23 ///
24 ///
25 ///
65
1 MURRIETA, CALIFORNIA - MONDAY, MARCH 2, 2009
2 1:14 P.M.
3 -000-
5 DR. JAMES CORBETT,
6 having been previously affirmed, was
7 examined and testified as follows:
9 EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
10 BY MS. MONK:
11 Q. Are you the faculty advisor for the
12 Freethinking Atheist & Agnostic Kinship Club at
13 Capistrano Valley High School?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And when was that club established at
16 Capistrano Valley?
17 A. I think it was last year.
18 Q. What is the purpose of the club?
19 A. It's a service club.
20 Q. What type of service does it provide?
21 A. A variety of things. They clean up after
22 events, set up for events, and whatever the activities
23 director needs to be done.
24 Q. Does the club have meetings?
25 A. Yes.
66
1 Q. How often are the meetings?
2 A. I would say occasionally.
3 Q. Do the meetings take place in your classroom?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you attend the meetings of the club?
6 A. Most of them.
7 Q. What takes place at those meetings?
8 A. They usually discuss whatever service project
9 they're involved in.
10 Q. Do you speak to the students during the club's
11 meetings?
12 A. Rarely.
13 Q. What is your role at the meetings, if anything?
14 A. I provide them with a place to meet.
15 Q. Outside of the meetings do you provide any type
16 of advice to the leadership of the club?
17 A. I don't recall exactly, but I think they
18 probably have come to me, I don't recall specifically,
19 and asked me about school and district policy.
20 Q. What about school and district policy did they
21 ask you about?
22 A. I do recall, it happened this year, though,
23 they had invited a -- I don't know if he's a pastor or a
24 Bible teacher from the Christian school that's across
25 the street, to come and speak at a meeting, and I
67
1 believe the question was whether or not it was
2 appropriate within the constraints of the 1st Amendment
3 to have this pastor or Bible teacher -- again, I don't
4 know who she was -- appear.
5 Q. Did you arrange for Jim Hoffman to come speak
6 to the students of the club?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know Jim Hoffman?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you -- were you in attendance when Jim
11 Hoffman spoke to the club?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did Mr. Hoffman give his lecture to the
14 students in your classroom?
15 A. It was physically in my classroom but it was
16 not during my class.
17 Q. Was it during lunchtime?
18 A. Yes, I believe it was.
19 Q. Have you seen the club's website?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you familiar with the content on the
22 website?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Have you ever provided any monetary support for
25 the club?
68
1 A. I think I've provided drinks, water. That's
2 it.
3 Q. Why does the club call itself the "Freethinking
4 Atheist & Agnostic Kinship"?
5 A. That was the name that the boys who formed the
6 club chose.
7 Q. And why did you choose to become the faculty
8 advisor of this club?
9 A. Well, the boys who formed the club came into my
10 classroom, I believe it was at lunch, but it might have
11 been during tutorial, and they asked me if I would be
12 advisor to their club.
13 And I said, look, I've got too much to do, I
14 won't be advisor, if being advisor involves me doing
15 anything. On the other hand, if all you want from me is
16 to use my classroom at lunch occasionally, I'll be the
17 advisor.
18 Now, at that time I didn't even know what the
19 name of the club was. Previously I had students come to
20 me several years back who wanted to form a Right Club,
21 similarly. In this case it was a group of politically
22 conservative students who wanted to form a club on
23 campus, and I said the same thing to them: I don't
24 really want to do anything that will take time, but I
25 stay in my room at lunch because kids like to come in
69
1 and get tutoring sometimes, sometimes they just want to
2 sit and talk, I say, I'll be in my room, so if you want
3 to use my room, you can go right ahead.
4 And then subsequently that club morphed into
5 the Political Awareness Club, and I think the reason was
6 stated by -- can't remember the kid's name now, sorry.
7 It was stated by the kid who formed the club, it was
8 five or six years ago, and he said calling it the Right
9 Club made it too exclusive, made it sound like people
10 with different points of view were not welcome.
11 Q. Were you the faculty advisor of the Right Club?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. MONK: I'm sorry, go off the record for one
14 second.
15 (Discussion off the record from 1:22 to 1:22.)
16 MS. MONK: This will be marked as Exhibit 1.
17 (Exhibit 1 marked.)
18 BY MS. MONK:
19 Q. Dr. Corbett, can you take a second to read
20 through this document.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Have you seen this document before?
23 A. I may have seen it. I never read it before.
24 Q. The document states that (reading):
25 The objectives of the Freethinking
70
1 Atheist & Agnostic Kinship for High
2 School Clubs is to: Create a haven
3 (place of safety) for all fellow
4 freethinkers; better the image of all
5 atheists, agnostics and freethinkers;
6 protect and promote civil rights of all
7 citizens; never, under no circumstances
8 contribute to the discrimination of any
9 minority group;
10 and then, 5 (reading):
11 Give members the required materials
12 to think for themselves.
13 Do you think that's an adequate statement of
14 the club's objectives?
15 MR. SPRADLIN: It's vague and ambiguous as to
16 what you mean by "adequate."
17 THE WITNESS: It's adequate to the extent that
18 it's what the founders of the club wrote down.
19 BY MS. MONK:
20 Q. Do you think it accurately portrays the club's
21 objectives?
22 A. I would guess that it does, I can't get into
23 their heads.
24 Q. During your involvement with this club have you
25 seen the club implement these objectives?
71
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What has the club done to implement these
3 objectives?
4 A. Well, they have occasionally -- and I can't
5 give you specifics, because I'm usually working on my
6 computer while they're having a meeting, or grading
7 papers -- I don't participate in the meetings. In fact,
8 the -- the Capistrano Unified School District has a
9 policy for advisors of noncurriculum related clubs, and
10 that is that they are not to participate, and I follow
11 that general rule.
12 On the other hand, I have seen them defend the
13 right of religiously conservative kids to speak at the
14 meetings, I have seen them defend and encourage people
15 of all faiths to be members of the group.
16 Q. Have you discussed this lawsuit with any
17 parents of students in your class -- classes this school
18 year?
19 A. I think I probably have.
20 Q. How many parents have you discussed it with?
21 A. I couldn't say.
22 Q. Do you know the names of the parents or any of
23 the names of the parents you've discussed it with?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know the subject or the content of those
72
1 conversations?
2 A. I think I could probably say that I'm regularly
3 asked, because it's been on The O'Reilly Show, and on
4 national television, and on the front page of The
5 Register, on the front page of The Times, I have had
6 parents ask me, how's the lawsuit going, what do I think
7 will be the outcome.
8 But as for specific parents, no, I couldn't
9 give you names.
10 Q. When parents ask you how the lawsuit's going,
11 what is your response?
12 A. Generally I'll tell them that I am confident in
13 my attorney and in the eventual outcome.
14 Q. And what is your response when parents ask you
15 what you think the outcome will be?
16 A. I think generally I say that's for the judge to
17 decide, but I think he'll decide in our favor.
19 parents of students in your class from last year?
20 A. I may have.
21 Q. Do you remember any specific conversations?
22 A. No. They would be similar to the ones I just
23 described.
24 Q. Have you ever discussed the lawsuit in your
25 2007-2008 AP European History class?
73
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what did you say in the classroom regarding
3 the lawsuit?
4 A. Similar to what I have said to the parents.
5 Q. Was there anything else that you said to the
6 students in the classroom regarding the lawsuit?
7 A. Not that I can recall.
8 Q. Have you talked to any students in either last
9 year's AP European History's class or this year's about
10 the lawsuit?
11 MR. SPRADLIN: Compound.
13 BY MS. MONK:
14 Q. What students have you talked to about the
15 lawsuit?
16 A. I can't recall.
17 Q. What did you discuss with those students?
18 A. Well, my practice is to answer the same way I
19 answer to the parents, and many people are curious, but
20 all I can say is I'm -- I'm confident in my attorney and
21 I think the judge will find in our favor.
23 teachers at Capistrano Valley High School?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know the names of the teachers you've
74
1 discussed the lawsuit with?
2 A. I can't recall specific names.
3 Q. Are you testifying that you cannot recall the
4 name of one individual that you've talked to regarding
5 this lawsuit at the school?
6 MR. SPRADLIN: Ms. Reporter, may I have the
7 question back? I'm not sure if it's a question or not;
8 I just want to hear it.
9 (The record was read by the court
10 reporter as follows:
11 "Q. Are you testifying that you cannot
12 recall the name of one individual that
13 you've talked to regarding this lawsuit
14 at the school?")
15 MR. SPRADLIN: I think it's vague and
16 ambiguous, it's also argumentative.
17 Do you want to rephrase that question?
18 MS. MONK: No, I would like him to answer it.
19 MR. SPRADLIN: If you can, answer it.
20 THE WITNESS: Bruce, last name slips my mind,
21 he's the department chair, Bruce. Well, that's odd.
22 I think Ken Sayles.
23 The names escape my mind right now. There were
24 others.
25 ///
75
1 BY MS. MONK:
2 Q. Is Ken Sayles an employee of the school?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is he a teacher?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What subject does he teach?
7 A. Advanced Placement United States Government.
8 Q. And what did you and Mr. Sayles discuss
9 regarding the lawsuit?
10 A. Pretty much the same thing that I said to the
11 parents.
12 Q. Is there anything else that you discussed with
13 Mr. Sayles?
14 A. Not that I can recall.
15 Q. Is there anyone else that you remember
16 specifically discussing the lawsuit with since the time
17 it was filed?
18 MR. SPRADLIN: Besides legal counsel; correct?
19 MS. MONK: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: There have been various people in
21 the year-some-months since this was filed who have heard
22 my name or who had me pointed out to them.
23 There is another name, Kathleen Sigafoos.
24 BY MS. MONK:
25 Q. Can you spell her last name.
76
1 A. I think S-i-g-a-f-o-o-s.
2 Q. Is she an employee of the school district?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is she a teacher?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What subject does she teach?
7 A. Advanced Placement European History.
8 Q. What school does she teach at?
9 A. San Clemente.
10 Q. What did you discuss with Ms. Sigafoos
11 regarding the lawsuit?
12 A. We discussed how the curriculum relates to the
13 lawsuit.
14 Q. What specifically did you discuss regarding how
15 the curriculum related to the lawsuit?
16 A. Kathleen provided me -- reminded me of a fairly
17 famous 18th Century cartoon in which a priest -- it's a
18 drawing -- a priest is holding a mask; the mask has the
19 archetypal image of Jesus --
20 THE REPORTER: The --
21 THE WITNESS: The archetypal image of Jesus.
22 MR. SPRADLIN: Some people say "archetypical."
23 THE WITNESS: Okay.
24 -- and he is holding the mask over his face to
25 fool people into thinking that opposition to the church,
77
1 the institution of the church, is in fact opposition to
2 Jesus. Voltaire thought that was false.
3 BY MS. MONK:
4 Q. And how does that cartoon relate to this
5 lawsuit?
6 A. Well, I think it demonstrates that one should
7 not be confused between faith in God and those who would
8 use faith in God for their own purposes.
9 Q. Do you think the Christian church uses its
10 faith in God for their own purposes, the members of the
11 Christian church, do you feel like they use their faith
12 in God for their own purposes?
13 MR. SPRADLIN: The question's vague and
14 ambiguous. When you say "members of the Christian
15 church," by last count there were many denominations in
16 the Christian church, so maybe you could define that for
17 us.
18 MS. MONK: No.
19 Q. Go ahead.
20 A. I can't answer that question. You know, the --
21 the number of different Christian denominations is
22 continuing to expand as we speak.
23 Q. Do you feel like -- do you think that currently
24 is a problem in the Christian church, that some
25 confuse -- or become confused between faith in God and
78
1 those who would use faith in God for their own purposes?
2 MR. SPRADLIN: Again, it's vague and ambiguous
3 when you say "Christian church." Not tying it to a
4 church. It's vague and ambiguous. You need to tell him
5 which denomination you're speaking of.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm afraid I couldn't answer that
7 question. When you say "Christian church," it is -- you
8 would have to be more specific than that.
9 BY MS. MONK:
10 Q. Do you feel like the Catholics, the Catholic
11 denomination confuse their faith in God and those who
12 use faith in God for their own purposes?
13 MR. SPRADLIN: It's vague as to time.
14 BY MS. MONK:
15 Q. Go ahead and answer the question.
16 A. Well, certainly there have been various times
17 in the Catholic church where various church leaders have
18 either confused the interests of the institution with
19 their personal interests and/or used faith for their
20 personal interests or the interests of the institution.
21 Q. In your opinion has that occurred in the
22 Lutheran denomination as well?
23 MR. SPRADLIN: Has what? It's vague and
24 ambiguous. When you say "that" occurred, what do you
25 mean?
79
1 BY MS. MONK:
2 Q. Go ahead, answer.
3 A. What?
4 Q. The same comment that you made previously.
5 MR. SPRADLIN: If that's a question, it's vague
6 and ambiguous.
7 BY MS. MONK:
8 Q. Have there been times in the Lutheran church
9 where various church leaders have either confused the
10 interests of the institution with their personal
11 interests and/or used their faith for the personal
12 interests -- for their personal interests of the
13 institution -- for their personal interests or the
14 interests of the institution?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have there been various times in the Methodist
17 church where various church leaders have either confused
18 the interests of the institution with their personal
19 interests and/or used faith for their personal interests
20 or the interests of the institution?
21 A. I don't know.
22 MS. MONK: Mark this as Exhibit 2.
23 (Exhibit 2 marked.)
24 BY MS. MONK:
25 Q. Dr. Corbett, you can read through it.
80
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Have you seen this article before?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you participate in an interview with the
5 author of the article?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you make the statements attributed to you
8 in the article?
9 MR. SPRADLIN: Well, it's vague and ambiguous.
10 What statements? You're going to have to go through
11 them, can't answer just a general statement like that.
12 BY MS. MONK:
13 Q. Is there a statement in the article that you
14 feel does not accurately portray what you told the
15 interviewer?
16 MR. SPRADLIN: Well, you got to go through it
17 page by page if that's what she wants you to do. Do you
18 see any -- as you go through the record, just indicate
19 if -- if you -- because if you don't see the statement,
20 you need to make record of that, just indicate what
21 statement you're referring to and what page it's on.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't see anything on page 2
23 that I would take exception to, although I think it's
24 important to recognize that, you know, I don't recall
25 exactly what I said word for word.
81
1 Daffodil is a pretty confident award-winning
2 journalist, I think she got the sum and substance of
3 what I had to say, but whether or not it's absolutely
4 the exact words I couldn't say.
5 Page 2 seems to be reasonable.
6 Do you want me to go through the whole thing or
7 do you want to start with page 2?
8 BY MS. MONK:
9 Q. Well, there are no comments from you on page
10 4 -- or 3. There are no comments on page 4.
11 A. Well, yes; they're just not quotes.
12 MR. SPRADLIN: Let her ask the questions.
13 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
14 BY MS. MONK:
15 Q. Let's skip to page 9. Midway through the page,
16 at the paragraph starts, "Corbett maintains that his
17 comments in class" -- you find that paragraph? It's
18 midway through.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you read that for me.
21 A. Yes (reading):
22 Corbett maintains that his comments
23 in class were and are not hostile to
24 Christianity. "Honestly I think that
25 most people who hear what I have to say
82
1 are going to realize that I would never
2 do what they have accused me of doing.
3 I don't care what other people's
4 religion is. I will admit that I'm
5 intolerant of religious-based racism,
6 misogyny, homophobia and a variety of
7 other religious-based excuses for
8 discrimination."
9 Q. Did you make this statement?
10 A. Again, I don't know if it's an absolute correct
11 quote, but the sum and substance is probably fair.
12 Q. Is this statement consistent with what you
13 believe?
14 A. I might change the word "intolerant" to
15 "impatient."
16 Q. Do you express your impatience of
17 religious-based racism, misogyny, homophobia and a
18 variety of other religious-based excuses for
19 discrimination in the classroom?
20 A. I have.
21 Q. Did you express your impatience of
22 religious-based racism, misogyny, homophobia and a
23 variety of other religious-based excuses for
24 discrimination when Chad was in the classroom?
83
1 Q. Can you give me an example of religious-based
2 racism?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What would be an example of religious-based
5 racism?
6 A. Well, many people in the American South, but
7 also in Calvinist apartheid South Africa, as well as
8 people elsewhere, have expressed the view that the
9 Biblical quotation which says, "The children of Ham
10 shall be reapers of wheat and hewers of stone and
11 drawers of water," is Biblical approval for racism.
12 Q. How do you know that many people in the
13 American South express the view that the Biblical
14 quotation which you just stated is an approval of
15 racism?
16 A. It's a -- it's one of the themes of American
17 history.
18 Q. How would you define a theme of American
19 history, or how would you define the phrase, "a theme of
20 American history"?
21 A. Themes are clusters of ideas around a single
22 subject that continue over some time to be an important
23 aspect and a continuing issue among the American polity.
24 Q. What would be an example of religious-based
25 misogyny?
84
1 A. Well, we could go back to the Renaissance, I
2 think, for example, where there were actually what are
3 called disputations among so-called religious scholars
4 over whether or not woman had souls. And there was a
5 significant community within the church that argued they
6 did not.
7 Q. Do you have an example of religious-based
8 misogyny that currently exists within America today?
9 A. It's not so much the particular word "misogyny"
10 here that's important. What's important is the theme
11 over time. For example, I suppose, Margaret Sanger over
12 a hundred years ago was jailed for purveying
13 pornography, and it was largely the church who demanded
14 her prosecution.
15 Q. Did you discuss Margaret Sanger with your
16 2007-2008 Advanced Placement European History class
17 while Chad was in the class?
18 A. I may have. I don't recall exactly.
19 Q. Is Margaret Sanger a part of the curriculum of
20 Advanced Placement European History?
21 A. Well, yes, to the extent that history really
22 has no meaning unless you can relate it to what's
23 happening, to what has happened, unless you can show
24 that there's some relevance. And so I drew, however
25 ethereal, a line from the misogyny of Margaret Sanger,
85
1 between Margaret Sanger and those disputations on the
2 question of whether or not women had souls.
3 Q. What is your definition of "curriculum"?
4 A. That's a tough question. Curriculum is the sum
5 and total of what is expected to be taught.
6 Q. And do you believe that Margaret Sanger is
7 expected to be taught in Advanced Placement European
8 History?
9 A. Well, we could argue about whether or not any
10 specific historical item should or should not be taught,
11 but any example which helps a student to think
12 critically is appropriate, as long as it doesn't impact,
13 I suppose, his health, safety or morals.
14 Q. Do you have an example of religious-based
15 homophobia within American history?
16 A. A specific incident? I don't recall one off
17 the top of my head.
18 Q. Is it your opinion that Boy Scouts in general
19 are homophobic?
20 A. Well, I am a Life Scout and they certainly
21 weren't when I was a Scout.
22 Q. Do you believe Boy Scouts, the Boy Scout
23 organization is homophobic today?
24 A. I think it's probably fair to say that their
25 actions in excluding gay Scouts from participation and
86
1 in their banning of gay Scoutmasters, a reasonable
2 interpretation of that decision would be that it's
3 homophobic, yes.
4 Q. In the article you refer to a variety of other
5 religious-based excuses for discrimination. Do you know
6 of other religious-based excuses for discrimination?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you give me, will you please state, other
9 religious-based excuses for discrimination that you're
10 aware of.
11 A. Well, in medieval Europe, twins were often
12 murdered on the grounds that they were a product of
13 Satan. Further, retarded people were sometimes feted as
14 especially sensitive to spiritual messages, and other
15 times seen as affected by demons. Mentally ill people,
16 through much of Western history, were often identified
17 by religious people as possessed.
18 For example, the girls in Salem who claimed to
19 be bewitched and accused a -- several women of being
20 witches, some of whom were put to death, I would
21 probably put all of those instances into that category.
22 Q. Do you think an educator should attempt to
23 shape the morals of his or her students?
24 MR. SPRADLIN: Well, the question is overly
25 broad, vague and ambiguous.
87
1 If you can answer the question, give it your
2 best.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, I think there are certain
4 fundamental values that -- that a teacher should be
5 teaching, yes.
6 BY MS. MONK:
7 Q. To what extent do you think a parent ought to
8 have a say in his or her child's education regarding
9 moral issues?
10 A. To a very great extent.
11 Q. Do you think it's possible to be both a
12 credible scientist and a devout Christian?
13 MR. SPRADLIN: It's vague.
14 MS. MONK: Actually, strike that question.
15 Q. Do you think it's possible to be both a
16 credible scientist and a fundamentalist Christian, using
17 the definition that you gave earlier that a
18 fundamentalist Christian believes in the literal truth
19 of the Bible?
20 MR. SPRADLIN: "Credible scientist," what's
21 that mean? It's vague and ambiguous.
23 MS. MONK: I think I'm pretty much done. Let's
24 take a break for five minutes. Couple more questions.
25 (A recess was taken from 2:17 to 2:28.)
88
1 BY MS. MONK:
2 Q. Dr. Corbett, do you take students to Europe
3 every summer?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What is the purpose of that trip?
6 A. It's a graduation trip.
7 Q. Do you select the students that go on the trip?
8 A. To the extent that I take the ones who are
9 willing to pay.
10 Q. Are the students that go on the trip always
11 students that have been in one of your classes?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How many students go each summer?
14 A. It varies.
15 Q. How long is the trip?
16 A. Two weeks, although it has varied over the
17 years.
18 MS. MONK: This is Exhibit -- I believe it's
19 113 from yours.
20 MR. SPRADLIN: Well, unfortunately I don't have
21 Exhibit 113 with me, so I accept your representation.
22 Do you have a copy for me?
23 MS. MONK: I do have a copy for you.
24 MR. SPRADLIN: Thank you.
25 MS. MONK: You're welcome.
89
1 Q. Dr. Corbett, I'll represent to you that this is
2 a transcript of an audio recording made by Chad Farnan,
3 I believe the date of the class was October 19th, 2007.
4 Starting on page 7, the second paragraph, it's
5 line 6, can you please read starting on line 6 to line 4
6 on the following page.
7 A. Um -- yes, as it's written here (reading):
8 -- not under the general heading of
9 sex and drugs, anyway. I have to be
10 careful about how I say this, but as
11 you know, it has elements of humor.
12 You just have to appreciate the humor.
13 U.S. regulators -- U.S. regulators
14 say -- and here I'm reading from an
15 L.A. Times article -- they added new
16 warnings about the potential risks of
17 sudden hearing loss for men who are
18 using Viagra, Cialis or Levitra. So
19 what they have been telling you all
20 those years, that you'll go blind,
21 isn't true; but you will go deaf.
22 And now what I think -- some Canadian
23 has to get this --
24 I have no idea, and I'm not confident that this
25 transcription is accurate or, if it is accurate, that
90
1 the tape it was taken from or the recording it was taken
2 from is accurate. The word "Canadian" there makes no
3 sense to me. (Reading):
4 ...if you went down the list of side
5 effects, of possible side effects, of
6 this drug, you could -- you could
7 really -- I mean, somebody who has all
8 of the side effects would be pretty
9 fun.
10 Again, that's not the way I speak. I might say "funny."
11 (Reading):
12 I mean, there is, after all, the
13 four-hour thing.
14 So, you know, you know, if you run
15 into somebody who is, you know, deaf
16 and whose pants felt stiff --
17 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry.
18 THE WITNESS: (Reading):
19 So, you know, you know, if you run
20 into somebody who is, you know, deaf
21 and whose pants felt stiff, he's
22 probably using the drug. But I think
23 there are many other side effects to
24 this.
25 So there is some potential for humor
91
1 here that probably isn't appropriate
2 for a 16-year-old. 29 men are deaf.
3 They're happy --
4 Together.
5 They're happy, but they're deaf.
6 BY MS. MONK:
7 Q. Then can you start reading again at line 25,
8 the bottom of the page, through line 8 on the next page.
9 A. (Reading):
10 And then other people say, you know,
11 we shouldn't be teaching our kids how
12 to have sex safely. We should be
13 teaching our kids abstinence. Well, we
14 know abstinence doesn't work. We know
15 one other thing; and that is, once
16 people become sexually active, they
17 often don't stop for, like, 40 or 50
18 years. I mean, generally, when you
19 start, you don't have a conversation
20 [sic] and become -- try to become
21 revirginized, you know. That's not
22 going to happen.
23 Q. Do you think these topics are appropriate to
24 discuss in an Advanced Placement European History class?
25 A. Yes.
92
1 Q. Are you aware of the -- are you aware of
2 whether the Capistrano Unified School District has a
3 policy on sexual harassment?
4 A. Yes, I'm aware.
5 Q. Do you know what the policy is?
6 A. Yes, I believe so.
7 MS. MONK: I think that's it.
8 Stipulation?
9 MR. SPRADLIN: I don't have any questions at
10 this time.
11 Do you have any questions?
12 MR. HERSH: No, I don't. Thank you.
13 MS. MONK: At Ms. Farnan's deposition it was
14 agreed that the transcript will be expedited, and
15 hopefully Dr. Corbett can receive the transcript by
16 Wednesday.
17 Is that a possibility, for you to FedEx by
18 tomorrow?
19 (A discussion was held off the record.)
20 MS. MONK: Okay. So we'll stipulate that a
21 transcript of the deposition will be emailed to your
22 office by Wednesday, and he previously stated that he
23 could review it within 48 hours and give a response as
24 to whether there are any changes.
25 Is that accurate?
93
1 MR. SPRADLIN: Well, let me ask a couple of
2 questions, if I might, from the court reporter; okay?
3 When will this transcript be emailed on
4 Wednesday?
5 THE REPORTER: I'll get it to you before noon.
6 MR. SPRADLIN: See, that's somewhat problematic
7 from the standpoint that if I'm not in the office to
8 receive an opened email, to read the transcript -- I
9 have got to email it on to the witness.
10 Let me propose a stipulation I think will
11 accommodate you. If it doesn't, then we can start over,
12 but let me just try it; okay?
13 Here is what --
14 MS. MONK: Other than the one that Carolyn
15 already agreed to that you are changing right now? Go
16 ahead.
17 MR. SPRADLIN: Well, I wasn't present when that
18 was agreed to.
19 MS. MONK: Well, you should have --
20 MR. SPRADLIN: I was in trial.
21 MS. MONK: Doesn't matter. Your attorney
22 agreed to it.
23 MR. SPRADLIN: If it doesn't work for you, then
24 you can tell me and then we'll start over.
25 MS. MONK: Go ahead.
94
1 MR. SPRADLIN: I'm trying to accommodate you;
2 okay?
3 MS. MONK: Go ahead, Dan.
4 MR. SPRADLIN: I would propose that we agree to
5 relieve the court reporter of her obligations under the
6 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure once she accomplishes
7 two tasks: No. 1, that she emails to my office what is
8 going to be represented to be the final transcript of
9 the deposition testimony of Dr. James Corbett by 12:00
10 noon on Wednesday, this coming Wednesday, whatever date
11 that is; No. 2, that she causes to be delivered to me by
12 the close of business on the following Tuesday the
13 original transcript of the deposition testimony of
14 Dr. Corbett.
15 Because there is a very strong probability that
16 the emailed transcript will be identical to the final
17 transcript, I propose that we will notify your office by
18 the close of business on -- by 5:00 p.m. on Friday of
19 any corrections made by Dr. Corbett to the emailed
20 transcript. I also propose that if there is some need
21 to change the original transcript that we'll notify you
22 within a week of that Tuesday that I get the original
23 transcript.
24 And I'll maintain custody and control of the
25 original transcript; if for any reason the original
95
1 transcript is lost or misplaced, and if you have been
2 notified of changes to the emailed transcript as I
3 provided for, then the certified copy of the original
4 transcript can be used at the time of trial and for --
5 with the exception that whatever email changes you've
6 already been notified would be included, and I will
7 notify you, as I said, within a week of my receipt of
8 any changes.
9 With regard to the potential -- and I don't
10 think there will be, but if there's some discrepancy
11 that becomes material on the motion for summary judgment
12 between the transcript and -- the emailed transcript and
13 the original transcript, both sides reserve their right
14 to file supplemental papers to address that limited
15 issue, if it becomes material, and I don't think it
16 would be, but just to provide for that.
17 I propose that as a stipulation.
18 MS. MONK: Agreed.
19 MR. HERSH: Agreed.
20 MS. MONK: That's fine.
22 (Whereupon, at the hour of
23 2:47 p.m., the proceedings
24 were concluded.)
25 -O0O-
96
1 DECLARATION OF WITNESS
3 I certify under penalty of perjury under the laws
4 of the State of California that the foregoing is true
5 and correct.
8 Executed at , on ,
(PLACE) (DATE)
9
10
11 (SIGNATURE OF WITNESS)
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25
97
1 DEPONENT'S CHANGES OR CORRECTIONS
2 Note: If you are adding to your testimony, print
3 the exact words you want to add. If you are deleting
4 from your testimony, print the exact words you want
5 to delete. Specify with "Add" or "Delete" and sign
6 this form.
8 DEPOSITION OF: DR. JAMES CORBETT
9 CASE: FARNAN vs. CAPISTRANO USD
10 DATE OF DEPOSITION: March 2, 2009
11
12 PAGE LINE CHANGE/ADD/DELETE
13
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25 Deponent's Signature Date
98
1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
2 COUNTY OF RIVERSIDE ) ss.
4 I, Paula A. Pyburn, CSR No. 7304, R.P.R., C.L.R.,
5 in and for the State of California, do hereby certify:
6 I am the deposition officer that stenographically
7 recorded the testimony in the foregoing deposition;
8 Prior to being examined the deponent was first duly
9 sworn by me;
10 The foregoing transcript is a true record of the
11 testimony given.
12 Before completion of the deposition, review of the
13 transcript [xx] was [ ] was not requested. If
14 requested, any changes made by the deponent (and
15 provided to the reporter) during the period allowed are
16 appended hereto.
17
18 Dated _________________________
19
20
21 _________________________________
Paula A. Pyburn
22 C.S.R. No. 7304, R.P.R.
Certified LiveNote Reporter
23
24
25
99

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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 FOR THE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

15 DEPOSITION OF: DR. JAMES CORBETT

16 DATE: March 2, 2009

17 TIME: 9:25 a.m.

18 LOCATION: ADVOCATES FOR FAITH AND FREEDOM

CANYON LAKE REPORTING, INC. (951) 244-3745

3 For the Plaintiff:

4 ADVOCATES FOR FAITH AND FREEDOM

2 Deposition of DR. JAMES CORBETT

3 Examination by: Page

2 9:25 a.m. - 2:47 p.m.

4 DR. JAMES CORBETT,

5 having been first duly sworn was

6 examined and testified as follows:

10 Q. My name is Jennifer Monk, I'm an attorney for

12 Can you please state and spell your name for

16 A. James Corbett, C-o-r-b as in "boy" -e-t-t.

17 Q. And your middle name?

19 Q. Have you ever had a deposition taken before?

21 Q. And when was that?

22 A. Must have been about ten years ago.

23 Q. Do you understand that the testimony you give

24 today is under penalty of perjury?

4 Q. Have you ever testified in court or other legal

7 Q. The function of the court reporter is to

8 transcribe everything that is said, so try to make sure

9 that you answer audibly and don't say "uh-huh" in

11 Following the deposition you'll have the

12 opportunity to review your transcript and make any

13 changes. However, any modifications may be used to

14 impeach or attack your credibility in future

15 proceedings, but any major -- minor changes might not be

16 significant, but major changes may be used against you.

17 Do you understand that?

19 MR. SPRADLIN: Slow down.

21 Q. If you answer a question, I will -- I will

22 assume that you understood it. If you don't understand

23 a question, ask me to repeat it, please. And your

24 attorney may state an objection. In a deposition you're

25 required to answer unless your attorney specifically

2 Is there any reason you cannot give your best

5 Q. Do you have any medical or health conditions

6 that would prevent you from giving your best testimony

9 Q. Have you taken any drugs or medication in the

10 last 24 hours that would prevent your best testimony

13 Q. Did you read or review any documents in

14 preparation for your deposition testimony today?

16 Q. What documents did you review?

17 A. I read some Lorenzo Valla.

20 Q. And why did you review Lorenzo Valla?

22 Q. What do you use it in class for?

23 A. It's a part of teaching about the Renaissance.

24 Q. Did you review any audio recordings in

25 preparation for this deposition today?

2 Q. Did you review any video recordings in

3 preparation for this deposition today?

5 Q. Did you speak with anyone other than your

6 attorney or his staff about your deposition today?

8 Q. Who did you speak with?

10 Q. And what did you and your wife discuss about

12 MR. SPRADLIN: Spousal privilege. Don't answer