., .

I'

maybe one or two other individuals.

e1r. Buckley: Ah-hum -- I have a few more, but go ahead.

Mr. Alinsky: All done in the same category.

Mr. Buckley: Are they? What category is Mr. Reisman in?

Mr. Alinsky: Oh, that's an interesting category -- sort of a new research procedure, where

you do not contact the. person you are doing research bn. You do not go into the projects.

You do not talk to anyone associated with them. And you then come up with some statements

which are so far removed from the fact, that even my mos~ bitter critics are too embarrassed

to use those statements.

Mr. Buckley: Except me. (Laughter)

Mr. Alinsky: Well, .you haven't used them. You've just made a comment on it. I made a

statement -- I refuse to debate with him, which only came up recently on the program --

as a matter of fact, in New York City.

And I made the remark that any time I see any of
battle
his stuff, it sort of makes me feel like a grizzled bell-scarred dog going down the street

~Thile 'way back -- say, six blocks back or so -- this little whining Pekingese comes out
sniffing, yipping and licking and growling at my leavings. And I'm not going to waste any

time turning around.

Mr. Buckley: You're not very nice to your critics, are you? (Laughter) But I gather you

resent it when they're not very nice to you. You called Sargent Shriver a political porno-

grapher.(Laughter)

Mr. Alinsky: No, I didn't call him that.

Mr. Buckley: Yes, you did. Unless you were misC].uoted.

Mr. Alinsky: No, no, I wasn't -- you're misC].uoting me at this moment.

Mr. Buckley: Well, I don't -- not intentionally --

Mr. Alinsky: Oh, I know that.
Mr. Buckley: I'm C].uoting words assigned to you by \I Harper' Sll magazi19.e.

Mr. Alinsky: No, I said that the Poverty Program was a prize piece of political pornography.

eMr. Buckley: Okay.

Nr. Alinsky: Now, do you want --

Mr. Buckley: (Laughing) You take i t from there. (IJaughter)
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
",

"
. -00;

Mr. Alinsky: Well, you take it (blurred) -- from there. 3.

e:lr. Buckley: Well, somebody has to write plOrnog:b~phy. For every" Fanny Hill," there's
a guy who wrote it.

Mr. Alinsky: Well, what I meant by that on the Poverty Program was it was a Federal welfare

program -- which, in fact, it is. Instead of being billed as a War on Poverty, and if it

didn't come out with all these sanctimonious, hypocritical, moralistic trappings and --

it wasn't "Harper's' but the reaction when I call it political pornography is -- let's put

it this way: I don't object to a minister or any religious representative getting up on the

altar and giving a sermon against adultery, because I think that's part of his racket, and

I think everybody sitting thel'e asswnes that. But when all the time you know that he has

been playing (1) with the organist (Mr. Bucluey cut in on this last line).

Mr. Buckley: Why do you say racket -- is this part of your racket to fight poverty? Are

you using racket in an invidious way?

Mr. Alinsky: No, no, I'm not.

.vlr. Bucluey: I see -- part of his profession.
Mr. Alinsl{,Y: Part of his profession.

Mr. Buckley: Part of his belief. Part of his ideals.

Mr. Alinsl{,Y: That's right.

Mr. Buckley: Go ahead, sorry. (Laughter)

Mr. Alinsky: You know exactly what I'm talking about. (Laughing)

Mr. Buckley: No, I want to be qUite sure because a lot of people say that you are pretty

anti-Christian, anti-dogma, and so on and so for~h.

Mr. Alinsky: Anti-Christian?

Mr. Buckley: That's what --

Mr. Alinsky: No, they don't call me anti-Christian. They say I'm sub-Christian. (Laughter).

Mr. Buckley: Wehll -- this is the editor of the "Living Churc~' magazine: I heard Mr.

eAlinsky speak at the Convention -- I had been told that he scoffs and snee~s at Christianity.

I came, I saw, I heard, and I concur. (Laughter)

Mr. Alinsky: Well, er -_

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,

 Mr. Buckley: He didn't call you a sub-Christian. It would be very unChristian to call 4.
~nybody a sub-Christian in any case, vlouldn't it'? (Laughter)

Mr. lUinsl\Y: Yes, but that's part of the practice of many of those so-called practit,ioners.

No, I'm not -- certainly not anti-Christian on those -- there ...re :mo..ny others that, you know,

quote the other "~aye But, I raise these shall I say, critical cormnent.s -- with those vlho

profess to be practising. I -- I get an emot.ional hang-up on hypocrisy. I don't mind sharp

disagreements on policies and differences of opinions and programs, but it's when you get

hypocrisy seasoned with sanctimoniousness, then I start saying, yeah -- you kno\V.

Mr. Buckley: Well, don't you think that's true of everybody? \'lho likes hypocrites? Do you

kno\V anybody who likes hypocrites?

Mr. Alinsky: (Pause and sigh) Yeah, I see them around. At least they don't call them --
J
Mr. Buckley: 1~ey don It go out of their way to criticize them.

Mr. JUinsky: Yeah, they don't say you're being a hypocrite.

Mr. Buckley: Yeah.

1
I
41'. Alinsl\Y: I would like to make two corrections on your --

~ Mr. Buckley: Yes sir.

Mr. Alinsky: -- on your introduction. One is, we donlt charge any fee, let alone a modest

fee for any services.

Nr. Buckley: I read the figure $100,000 from Hochester.

Mr. Alinsl\y: 'I'hat I S right, I.mt thOse fund:.:> are spent right in the corrununity.

Mr. Buckley: ~, I assume so, yeah.

Mr. Alinsky: As far as my salary, or as far as the foundation oper--

Mr. Buckley: Marshall Field pays that.

Mr. Alinsky: Oh, no, ~~rshall Field hasn't paid anything since -- he died about fifteen
years ago.

Mr. Buckley: Oh, the old Marshall Field.

Mr ••\linsky: The old Marshall Field.

\..;'
Mr. Buckley: Marshall Ji'ields never die. (Laughter)
Mr. Alinsky: Well, that in fact will be YOtu' hang-up. (Laughter) II m not going to get into
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
that one. But er --
 Mr. Buckley: You have to make a living, obviously. And you should.

V. A1insl~: Well, we make our own -- we're like Sherman's AJ.'my -- we live off the Jand

~ -- that's the price of our independence. We don't get foundation grants on it. We have

teaching institutes in terms of money -- major religious denominations. And there's an

intensive university lecturing schedule across the country and consultations with various

groups in different cities that we are not operating but who want to know how to organize.

But it's on that basis that our funds are raised. The funds that are charged, say in

Rochester, or Kansas City or Chicago, are spent in that conununity for organization.

Mr. Buckley: Hell, I think that you've touched on a point that's extremely interesting I

would like to develop because you do have fascinating general notions. For instance, you said

1 1 11 steal before I'll take charity.

Mr. A1ins~: Yeah.

Mr. Buckley: Now, suppose I'm the person you're going to steal it from --- would you con-

suIt my feelings if' I were to say to you, before stealing from me -- please, won't you just

Vke it? Or is it the act of stealing that gives you the satisfaction that you require'?

Mr. JUins~: Oh, of cour::>e not. You know better than that. It isn't the act of stealing.

(Next of his remark blurred in overlap).

Mr. Buckley: Well, then it is charity -- "hy don't you take charity then'(

Mr. A1ins~: Well, you know what I meant by charity -- just going to, getting vlelfure hand-

outs and --

Mr. Buckley: Welfare handouts are the products (?) (bl~ed in overlap) of philanthropy.

Your difficulty, it seems to me, is that you may be premature --

Mr. A1ins~: Well, you may not have contradictions. Of' course, I have -- life itself

is just a constellation of contrad~ions --

Mr. Bucluey: Now, I think you're very cynical. I don't think you think you are. But you are.

You really assume the way --

Announcer; We'll interrupt briefly and then return to the points at issue.

~" Buckley: (Continuing, but barely audible during announcement) pretty much the

way a blind man does about sex (inaudible) p.leasure for it, it's associated with the

act of rape. You feel tha~ ~ of;ms@9@eA~et.eli~dSQV'fofd ~On~§(Sit~O you certain, certain
 u6ufructs of life, and .that, the.re1'ore, you .must either take it from somebody b~cause you

will not permit that society to give it to you • Isn't that the meaning of your: (blurred)
.\....1
Mr. Alinsl~: (Breaking in) No, I think you're going off into a -- little verbalistic

vortex on this business on this point. vJhen I talk about power, I'm using it l:>trict1y as

defined in Webster's Unabridged as the ability to act. I'm saying that a people do not

II get power except vThen they take it. When they'l'e strong enough so that the other side

gives it Lip. Or at least gives up i{hat would be a compromise arrangement. Compromise, to

J

1 me is not a dirty word; if I had to define the whole democratic process in one word, I
j
I
'I
would use that word. As far as the little example you gave -- it's just so academic.
1
j
In the first place, if v1e're going to steal anything from somebody,he isn't going to be
j around to say to you, wbydon't --
'1
•
Mr. Buckley: Sometimes they are~ It happens every day in New York. (Laughter)
~
i Mr. A1insky:

Mr. Buckley:
I read your co1unm on that one.

Okay. You say', y-our money -- you know, your money or your life. Jack Benny

vays, Well, I'll have to think it over. (Laughter) But, they're often uround -- in effect
II
I\ you have that -- call it choice (last very unclear). But you do have a feeling -' you
~ just said a moment ago now that you said that you only get power if you. wrest it from somebod

i Mr. Alinsky: Yeah, well -- let's -- You only get power as a reaction to a threat. I think --

Mr. Buckley: true~

fl'hat's not -
1j -,
I
I r-1r. Alinsky: Oh, of course i t is.

Mr. Buckley: Suppose everybody in this room decided to nominate you as our leader. You

would then have power over us. Does that mean that you wrested it from us?

Mr. i'J..insky: If everybody in this room decided to nominate me as their leader, I wouldn't

have any ~a~t power to do anything.

Mr. Buckley: (unintelligible) Why wouldn't you - why wouldn't you if we pledge

our allegiance to you,

some
Mr. ~'\1insky: I'd have a bunch of kids and you. While your columns might be of/help for a

Vhile --

Mr. Buckley: No , b 1.1 t suppose __

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

 '(.
Mr. fUinslcy: No, I'm 1001<::Lng ut it very pragmatically.
1
I U-1r. Buckley: Now, suppose you were j.n a position to deplpy us in any "lay that you chose,
i
we having to decide to give you that power, why haven't we actually vouchsafed you some-

thing.

Mr. lUinsky: In the first place, I have never tal\:en that kind of pOl·ler.
I
Mr. Buckley: That's a different that's not a relevant ansVler. I'm trying to unders tcmd

your philosophY here. I find i t difficult to do.

1
1 Mr. Alinsky: Well, do you want to understand nw philosophY?
I

Mr. Buckley: Desperately. (Laughter)

Mr. Alinsky: You do? Well, can you sort of be desvel'ately silent fOl' about one minute or

two minutes. lUl right, I'll go with you on it.

Mr. Buckley: Three.

Mr. Alinsky: 'l'hree. lUl right. As far as I'm concerned, living in the \wrld as it is,

you don't have the choice of Vlhat's best. l!.very judgment that is made is made on the basis

'-Sf alternatives. 'On that basis I will I find myself totally cOlmnitted to a free and

in terms of my OI'1n acceptance and understanding of our political situation -- I find myself

very much in agreement vIi til the thinking of the early Revolutionary leaders. I'.n thinking

of men like Madison, Jay, Halnilton, et cetera, who I think were extraordinarily politically

sophisticated and very well read and very thoughtful in terms of the implications of their

actions and very much aware of the fact th -- of the world they were living in,.wa8 not --

and they weren't getting it mixed up with the world as they would like i t to be. But that

this was a jump-off point that they vlex'e heading towards -- the f'ui!ure v~ere mankind could
'"
'1 always be improving or living a happier life full of potentials for -- you find yourself

'rifting into cliches here -- for achieving his. own dignity, fr'eedom, e<a.uality, et cetera.
V
Nov" the one thing that they were concerned ttl)out in this kind of a life is that vlhile things

would always be changing, that, busically, wlli.vtever future there \-lUS to -- the future of an
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
 8.
open society, it rested in the fact of having as ~~ny people involved as citizens being

~ble to act as citizens, able to have po,.,el'. Er

Mr. Bucluey: Freedom is participation in pm'TeX', I agree.

Vir. Alinsky: JUI right. And that if we ever ran into a situation in this country vThere

a large sector of our population was disenfranchised politically and economically, et cetera

-- I'm not talking about equality in terms of e<1ual income or anything else of that sort --

but i f \'10 ever ran into that kind of situation that it would very vTel1 become malignant and

bring down the hopes for the future. As a matter of fact, deTocquille makes the same point

in his speculations of this new way of life. Now, what is involved here, and I have to an-

swer you on tvlO levels here: One is a 'committment to the kind of -- the combination of

circwnstances, 8Ba in those sectors of our society that are disenfranchised vThereby through

organization, which is really a synonym for authority to act in this world. The only reason

people every organize, in fact, in order to be able to put things into practice ideas that

they have in order to belong, in order to have the power to be part of the --
V
Mr. Bucluey: To maximize their leverage, yeah.

.. Mr. Alinslq: Yeah. Or to get leverage to even begin one where they don't hcwe any.
j
j Mr. Buckley: You've got lever'age if you can vote. (Next blurred in overlap).

Mr. JUinslq: Yeah, but there are large sectors of our population that weren't even able to

vote'.

Mr. Buckley: A;'e you talking about Hochester?

Mr. lUinsl\:y: No, I'm tulking about Mississippi. 1 ' m talking about the South. I'm talldng

a'bout the vThole basis in many sector's of this country in terms of the civil righ"':s revolution.

Er -- you have to have that. You even huve to have it -- if I might digr'ess for a moment --

on a (unclear word) situation -- let's say, people are organizadi. You do not have that

j that complex that -- call it political' complex -- complex, I'm usil).g political strictly in

the Greek sense here, ',.,hereby through getting together, through having a convention, through

lc.wing un election of offic(jrs, ac;reement on policies, and so forth, that they can turn to
V
other sectors of society, and say: here arc u,tr n~presentatives; these are the men for you

to deal with in the dowocl'atic give and take L,ndhaulinc; decislou-maklng, et cetera. Hithout
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
 this, which I think is a primary element in the democratic mix, the ",hole democratic 9.
society begins to founder. Let's take Detroit, right after the riots that occur:ced. Let's
V
assume that the pov,ers that be,deciding as they did decide when they got together af'ter-

wards, we've got to deal "lith the representatives of the Black ghettoes. They turn to

the Black ghettoes and say send us a representative. vlho's gonna come forth'? Unless a

people are organized, you don't have that combirrt;ion "'hich .E:oduces legitimate, bona f;ide

REPRE8 representation.

Mr. Buckley: Why, sure. And in Chicago, they also dealt ",ith Capones, as you know, having

been very close to that situation. I -- your relationship, I hasten to say, was platonic,

but, you know

Mr. Alinsky: It was non-participating.

Mr. Buckley: That's right. And -- (Fades out at break by Announcer)

lmnouncel': He'll rejoin our debate after this brief pause.

Hr. Buckley: (Still inaudible during announcement)

vI'. f.J.insky: (Also blurred out) -- platonic -- let's not --

Mr. BuclCLey: Yeah. The er -- nevcrtheles:j you observed u.nd -- and it is quite true that

you have to deal through spokesmen if you wo.nt to deal with nwnbers -- numbers of people,

that's -- that's a social truism.

Mr. Alinsl\Y: It's been the case since 1840. 'rhe other point that comes in in which

I would be interested in your reactions

.,.j 1>1.1'. Buckley: Whu.t happened in 10407

had
Mr. Alinsky: We Rl'iVe too many people around to keep going on the town hall basis -- except

out on the western frontiers.

Mr. BuclCLey: ll..h-huh.

Hr. A1insky: The other thing that I would like to bring up here is when you push me on

reasons why, you are really asking me -- and this is the kind of' thing a guy like Beisman

and a number of these political illiterates are always coming up with as far as -- I'm

\.....being very kind -- (Laughter) and it's quite a strain (Mr. Buckley laughs) -- ",ith refer-

ence to where you going, ",hat's your ideologj.

Mr. Buckley: Uh-hmm.

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,
 10.
Mr. Alinsky: Well, the ideology and the organizer in a free society, for a free so-

~iety
.l presents some real hang-ups on it. I'd be interested in your reactions on it

because an ideology -- to begin with, to have an ideology, you've got to have possession

of' a prime truth. Now, a Marxist starts off, he's got possession of a prime truth: (1).
Prime Truth -- All problems that we have in our society are due to the exploitation of

the proletariat by the capitalist. 80 then the ideology begins. F'~e You come to stage

(2) _. obviously, you get rid of the capitalist. Since they will not voluntarily alidicate

cooperate and abdicate, you have what as known as a revolution. Stage (3) Dictatorship

of the proletariat -- reorganizing society. stage (l4-) Paradise on earth - COiJununism.

get up there and
Any good Catholic Jesuit can/give you the Catholic ideology. You start of'f with the

Prime Truth (1) The acceptance of the rrrinity of Christ --

Mr. Buckley: Uh-hm.

Mr. Alinsky: And you leave from there on. My problem and the problem of any organizer in

a free society for an open society is (1) r1e doesn't have a prime truth -- truth is relative
V
J
and changing, and not having that prime truth to begin vlith -- not having the reason for
I
J all the illnesses, such as a Harxist has, doesn I t have the formula or the prescript.x:m to the

answers. All we can do in this situation is to simply assume one article of faith, and

that is, if the people have power as citiz~ns, that they will meet each particular crisis

and each particular iss\.:1.e as it comes along. And you cannot predict what they're going

to be. So that you don't have a neat,packaged political prescription.

Mr. Buckley: Well, I'm not asking you for a neat, paclmged poli tical I rejoice that
you don't have one. I tend, like you, to distrust those vlho do. I'm talking about,

of course, temporal rather than spirituCll matters, though I think vTe should at least

acknowledge that you begln,for instance,by believing that the democratic way tends to
any of
make more sense of/the visible alternatives --

Mr. Alinsky: '1'hat's right.

Mr. Bucluey: -- a proposition with which I happen to agree, though I hope you won't how
v
call me an ideologist in the sense th;at you have been cond0rnning Ideologists fo:c that
to
reason. But, I think ,.,hat's most interest.i:lg about yourself -- at leastjmost people --
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
 is this distinctiveeppeal that you have to certain types of people who recognize 11.
~."
~there is a problem of the poor. You appeal to some of them because you have this disdain

for wel-fare-ism (tilT. Buckley draws this out) as suggested by tl:d ultimatum of yours that

you'd rather steal than receive welfare. Now, this appeals to a lot of people soft of'

Conservative-minded, who are against welfare because they do believe that there is going on

in this country a sort of' institutionalization of welfare that "lye ought to g;t out 01' it

and that to be essentially hmnan, you've got to make your own way. So you appeal to them.

On the other hand, you appeal -- they would be Conservative in a way -- you appeal also to

Liberals and radicals because yours is a highly non-rhetorical approach. You actually want

to organize the poor, and you want to cause them to demand things. And you seem to be

u·tterly either unconscious or, if not unconscious, at least insensible to the normal

niceties of approach. 1n1en you want something -- you simply want it.

Mr. Alinsl\y: It isn't~wanting it.

Mr. Buckley: Hell, vlhen you see that they want it, yeah. Now, for instance, you were per';'

\.Ifectly prepared, as I understand it, to close dO"l{ll City Hall a while ago in Chicago --

just sent ~ after ~ of people there just to close it down. Malee it impossible for

the Mayor to go in, the Mayor to go out. Or the Sheriff to go in or the Sheriff to go out.

And -- (blurred in overlap)

Mr. Alinsky: I've been involved in so many of these things, I'm trying to remember --

Mr. Bucluey: That was Hoodlavffi -- .Woodlawn, yeah. And you arc perfectly prepared to

cause a tremendous cUUOW1t of cOlmnotion out in the suburban areas where landlords live so

as to force the neighbors, as you put it -- themselve~ to put pressure on the delinquent

landlords to make those refonns and show (Blurred in overlap).

Mr. Alinsky: (Unclear in overlap) ~lflat was pure (?) -- those people only do the right

things for the wrong reasons. lffid I wanted to get the vn1ite neighbors to put the pressure

on their white slwn landlord in order to get rid of the Negro pickets that were in the

cOlmUunity. They vleren' t doing it for equality.

~Mr. Buckley: Yeah. Once again, it seems to me that you obtrude into the discussion

your own central cynicism.

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

 Mr. Alinsky: That's not cynicism, that's realism.
12.
~ Mr. Buckley: 0 come on ... - a lot of people do things they don't want to do at all,

and they do them simply because they think it's the right thing to de. I'll in-

traduce you to some if you like later on.

Mr. Alinsky: Are they all Conservatives?

Mr. Buckley: They're of every stripe, lot of them are Liberals, some of them are

radicals. Some of them are Communists. But you -- you say, for instance, and I think

this m~y 1.>e -- at least it's the most interesting thing I've ever seen you say. My

ovm reaction to it was most interesting. You say, I've been asked why I never talked

to a Catholic priest or a Protestant minister or a rabbi in terms of the Judeo-

Christian ethic or the Ten Commandments or the Sermon on the Mount. I never talk

in those tel~s, instead I approach them on the basis of their o,vn self-interest,

the vTelfare of their church, even its physical property. And you go on to say,

the most importantlesson is thatpeople don't get opportunity or freedom or equality

or dignity as a gift or an ~ct of ch~rity they only get those things in the act

of taking them through their ovm efforts. Now it seems to me that my experience, --

Mr. Alinsky: You left out a very important line there.

Mr. Buckley: Excuse me?

,.

Mr. •Uinsky: You left out a very important line there.

Mr. Buckley: Excuse me, I didn't mean to. What was it?

Mr. Alinsky: I said I did not approach ministers, priests or rabbis on the basis

of Judeo-Christian moral principles because to do so would be to go outside of their

experience. They vTOuldn't Imow ,.,rhtt I was talking about.

Mr. Buckley: Hell -- the.t, there again you're compounding your cynicism. I assume

that there exists some,.,rhere in the world a rabbi --

Mr. Alinsky: Oh, sure, there are plenty of them.

Mr. Buckley: who doesn't consider himself anti-Jewish

v Mr. Alinsky: but don't you see that ...:-

Mr. Buckley: or a Christian that (iuesn't

Mr. l\linsky: don't you see in the field of action you're compelled to polarize.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
 I
Jv Mr. Buckley:

Mr. Alinsky:
~fuen I'm not compelled to pol~rize.

Well, you're sitting on a television show.

I don't see why you should.

I'm down there organizing.

Mr. Buckley: I know. Yeah.

Mr. ..'D.insl\y: Look, let me --

Mr. Bucluey: You're saying, for instance, that the Sel~on on the Mount cannot have any

direct experience en people. I'm disputing it. I think that Billy Graham probably has

done more good than you have for poor people. And the reason he has is because, it seems

to me, that the spiritual side of man is that which makes man most important of all.

Mr. Alinsky: No.

Mr. Buckley: And for somebody to stimulate the spiritual faculty is somebody who is
Now,
going to do that man most good in the long run. /Obviously, he's got to start by getting

bread and roofs.

... Mr. Buckley: Only that which I can personally get belongs to me and nobody's going to

help me toget it. I think that America, viewed as a nation, is the most humane nation

in the experience of the world. I think there is more genuine concern for the poor, for

the underprivileged, for the weak in America than we've ever seen in the history of the

world. And I see you trying to fire and establish -- and disestablish the order that
, made that possible.
")

Mr. Alinsky: You you have -- you had a line in your introduction that I raised

V racial animosity.

Mr. Buckley: Yes~ I certainly do.

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

 Mr. Alinsky: Do you think when I go into a Black ghetto uEon their invitation, in-

~identallY, I never go in uninvited, because we're not a colonial operation, you know,
going in like so many other sectors of society: we're going to do this for you \~lether

you like it or not. Do you think that I go in and say, Look, I want all of you to know

something. Do you know thtyou're being segregated? Do you know that you're being dis-

criminated against? Do you know all these things that white society is doing to you? How

can you give me that kind of hogwash"

Mr. Buckley: Because you say that they know it anyway. That's your line, isn't it?

Mr. Alinsky: They know it anyway~

Mr. Buckley: Yeah, yeah.

Mr. Alinslq: And you're looking at me saying that~ And saying that's my line, isn't it?

Mr. Buckley: I am saying that a lot of people tend to believe about their own condition

that which they are told. There are people in Russia who believe they are free --

~r. Alinsky: You know what you ought to --

V
l1r. Buckley: -- and if you tell the Negro people of this country that they don't have any

opportunity, they don't hdve ~ freedom, that they don't have ~ dignity, you're telling

them something that (A) Isn't so; (B) You are inviting them to hate as your deputy minister

Florence (sp.?) hates the white race -- he wears the Black Power badge --

Mr. ,\linsky: You don't think they hate -- you don't think they hate before I come in there?

Mr. Buckley: I lillow 8. lot a tremendous number of people are poor who don't hate. I even

~ know rich people who don't hate. I even know people who don't llate you, which is the greater

act of (Laughter) NOvl, the

Mr. Alinslq: You know, Buckley, if you'd been around (drovmed out by Announcer)

Announcer: \'le'll expand on these and other points under discussion in just a moment.
l1r. JUinsky: (Remarks lost during announcement) -- and all the rest of them. (Blurred)

-- we're starting to get certain concessions --

r. BuclCLey: Are you in favor of war when pOGsibly negotiation might possibly do the trick?
\J
Mr. AlinGlq: No, but I'm Gaying that (stops on hearing audience Laughter) nm'l, you know

·you're turning that --

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
 Mr. Buckley: No, (Laughing) I'm not.

Mr. l\linsky: Sure you are. (Laughter)

1
.Ii
'-I'vlr. Buckley: We might have -- we might have on (unintelligible), might we not?

Mr o Alinslq: But do you think that the Blacks of this country are going to sit around

waiting for this -- this mythical love-charity business that you're talking about?

Mr. Bucluey: I think that the Blacks in this country huve friends, and they have people

who think of themselves as friends --

I 1
Mr. Alinsky:
Mr. Bucluey:
Of what?

I think people like Stokeley Carmichael and Rap Brown do a great deal of harm,

iI and I ~hink that you have done less harm, but you have done ~ harm.

Mr. Alinsky: (Breaking in) 'Hell, I take that as a compliment.

J
I Mr. Buckley: Curiously -- curiously, this is a harm that you don't do to peqie simply be-
I
cause they're Negro. You do them to anybody who buys your philosophy. Your philosophy is
I1
really sort of solipsistic. The people -- you Just exist, alld only that v1hich you see exists,
1
~nlY that which you take is yours, only that power which you exercise is exercisable. And I

think this is a pretty distressing philosophy.

I
~ Mr. Alinsky: Hell, that's -- that's an aborted over-simplification. It's a very warped
1
1 attitude.

Mr. Bucluey: Aborted'?

11r. Alinsky: That's right. Because it's much more than that. You're not going to get a man

you're not going to get men, including many religious leaders, including certain persons

like Jacques Maritain wouldn't be buying an approach and be approving of it on the -- on a

basis which you have just propounded.

Mr. Buckley: I know. He views it differently. lie (unintelligible word) differently, and I

don't think you want someone (unintelligilie) in authority --

Mr. Alinsky: When you say it's bad --

Mr o Buckley: Yeah.

v. Alinsky: Hriat ,,,as bad about Hoodlawn?

Mr. Buckley: Hell, it seems to lUe --

Mx'. Alinslq: Do you know what happened down tlJcre'?
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Mr. Buckley: Uh-hll1l1lll1.
 , "

16,
Mr. Buckley: (Continuing) Yeah, yeah -- assuming it wasn't incorrectly reported, and

\.II read 15,~00 words in "Con~entarj' about what happened there. Can I proceed to discuss

that?

Mr. Alinsky: Sure~

Mr. Buckley: 'I'hat wasn't a misquotation?

Hr. Alinsky: No, that "lasn't.

Mr. Buckley: And it was done by some'body very enthusiastic about you, as you know.

Mr. Alinsky: Yeah -- and from a left-wing magazine.

Mr. Buckley: Correct -- correct. Nuw, it seems to me that what's wrong with Woodl~wn is

the same thing, generally, that's wrong "lith, for instance, great marches on Washington.

v/hat's wrong is that it that is a way of achieving power which breaks down the structure

of process. Now, you can say, the hell with process, I can't eat process -- this is what

they usually say at this turn in the discussion --

Mr. Alinsky: Hell, no, no. But what do you mean by it brol,;:e dO'wn process?

'-'Mr. Buckley: Hell, what I mean is that when you say, Look, this is a program of things we

. j want, and if you don't give it to us, we're going to make it inwossible for Chicago to con-

tinue (unclear word) co~ercial or civic life at all. 'rhe sit-ins at City Hall, the traffic

tie-ups and the rest of it. rfhis -- this is Vintage Alinsky, isn't it?

Mr. J'J.insky: No, no. That's that's old vintae;e. No,!1 proxY' is a nlore (unintelligible)

i Mr. Buckley: Oh, you mean this is a you, you reject the methods used in Woodlawn?
j
Mr. Alinsky: Well, there's -- I reject them for a very nimple reason because they're no

longer effective. A tactic ,which is ineffective is no longer even a tactic.

Mi'. Buckley: I see.

Mr. Alinsky: Now we're involved -- we're involved in a whole modern, corporate economy,
and you've got to deal on a whole different level.

Mr. Buckley: You're saying this happened since 1960?

Mr. Alinsky: Yeah -- this happened the last couple of years. The Edstman Kodwt fracas
\....I was an example of it on the proxy side.

Mr. Buckley: Shall 'VIe talk about that'?

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,

 Mr. Alinsky: I don't care what we talk about. But let me suggest this before you get 17.
away from it. 'l'hat before 'Vloodla,m, on the so-called mystical process which you are talking
V
about -- you had a large lilaSS of about 100,000 Negroes viho were just a rootless, floating,

disenfranchised group 'of people who had been under urban renewal -- many of them were two

and three times over fugitives from bulldozers. They were utterly demoralized. They were

on the verge of 'being bulldozed again out into another slum. As a consetluence of' their E!:E.

organization, and what they've done through the power of thcir own activity, thcy today are

in full command of their own urban renewal program. Not only that, they -- the city and

the government both agreed that they would be their own devclopers which means that they

can turn to the building and trades unions, Wl1ich are notoriously segregated, and say,

unless you integratc, you 'Till not be cmployed on these projects.

Mr. Buckley: 'llremendous. That's superb, yeah.

Mr. Alinsky: And I could give you all kinds of what happened in terms of education of

people with them, so that today, even the University of Chicago, which at that time

v my alma mater -- which vTaG a bitter adversary, is one of the staunchest allies of the whole

Woodlavffi organization. Do you know that?

Mr. Buckley: No, and I'm delighted to hear it, because I know that you were very critical

and assumed that they ivould never come around to their senses.

Mx'. l\linsl\y: No, but this is during the stage of conflict~ And I suppose you would call

that cynical. Hhcn you have to polarize.

Mr. Bucldey: Well, there again -- there again, you say that conflict precedes !:!:!SL progress
j
I at all. A:3 a mutter of fact, I think you suid that the diffurence between the radical and'
,
,~

the Liberal is the difference between the man who believes thut revolution -- a series of

revolutions are necessary to walce progress.

Mr. Alinslq: No, I said the difference betiveen a Liberal and a radical is that the Liberal

is the guy ,{ho vTalks out of the room vThen the argument turns into' a fight. And on the

other thing that you vvcre tulking about on rev:iutions, I said that revolution is primarily

Van -- I'll put it the other way. I said that evolution is a chronological term usell by

non-p:ltrticipating historians to denote a tilJlC sequence of a whole series of' l'evolutions

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

 18.
synthesize into a major change -- then they call it evolution.

~. Bucluey: Yes -- yeah. Can I quote you exactly? Quotes: l~ere is no evolution

without revolution, and there are no revolutions' without conflict, and this is the line

which separates Liberals from radicals.

Mr. Alinsky: Hhere did you get that from?

Mr. Buckley: II Harper' s'~

Mr. Alinsky: (Pause) All right.

Mr. Buckley: I'll show you it to you after

Mr. Alinsl;;y: No, I'll buy it.

Mr. Buckley: Now, do you -- isn't this once again one more expression of your belief

that what progress is made is made by some sort of a Hegelian sense of' controversy, con-

flict, (blurred word sounding like antithesis) and so on. You just finished discussing

the fact tnat there exists in Chicago now something that is substantially better than was

there five or six years ago. Then you say, don't you understand the reason it came into

~being was because of' the Woodlawn operation and, sure~ the Woodlawn operation involved

coni'lict -- .it necessarily ~ to. And rm asking whether or not progress can't be made

, without --
j
"1
Mr. J\linsky: No, I don't believe so. I think that the most insidious, the most subversive

force that has ever entered the American scene is what I would call Madison Avenue public
the word,
relations -- middle class -- moral hygiene. ;lhich has made, !conflict a nasty word. And

controversy a very nasty word. So people are fired off mass media for controversy.

Mr. Bucluey: Hell, don't youthinm the reason -- I, obviously, have a stake in the tolera-

tion of controversy, but I want to ask you this, can't one aehieve progress by reason

or must it be by a conflict of force?

Mr. Alinsky: bvenon the basis of reason, the moment you con~ up with a new idea promptly
...
challenges the prevailing sacred power of the older idea and you've got a conflict going on.

I thinl{ that controversy is the matrix of everything creative that comes out of life.
V
Mr. Buckley: Hell, but then then the question is what do you consider controversy.

For instance, is a debate in Congress contr,)'lersy in the sense that you are talking about?

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

 19.
Because there are those.
IV Mr. Alinsky; Controversy ranges. It ranges all through variops levels of life. I
J
would consider, for exanwle, the san~ thing on revolutiono I think Social Security was

revolutionary.
Il,
! Mr. Buckley; Yeah.
I Mr. Alinsl\y; I think Medicare ,~as revolutionary. You see the problem is every --

II Mr. Buckley:

Mr. Alinsl\y:
It does seem that we have a semantic difficulty.

J\.ll words in the whole arena of action are all loaded. (Announcer breaks in)
,I
l Announcer: Our debate on these varied issues will continue after this brief pause.
I
I Mr. Alinsky: (Continuing but some of his remarks lost during simultaneous announcement)
1
j -- gets an idea of blood and barricades, and that sort. j\nd then you say, p01-ler, -- it's
.J
a sinister word, you know.

Mr. Buckley; But for instance, we got -- we got Medicare in this country, and ,.,e got it

as a result of a lot of discussion. Now mightn't IUinsky students have felt that you
v would need to shoot a few doctors or let a few people die for lack of medical attention

~ before you'd have the kind of conflict that's necessary to midI-rife for Medicare? And I'm
j
1 asking why can't you have --

Mr. P~insl\y;
(OVerlapping) Buckley, I've been fascinated by your eyes in previous shows
will
I've watched you on, and w~eH you look at me and tell me whether you believe what you're

Mr. Bucluey: Well, of course, No -- what I'lll trying to do is extract from you disbelief

in what people understand you to bc ~elieving. Perhaps you -- I'm terribly refreshed that

you aee constantly shocked that people -- at quotations I throw at you of things you've

Ivlr. Alinsl\y; vlhy am I shocked?

Mr. Buckley; I'm delighted~ 1~lis shows great progress. (Laughter)

Mr. Alinsky: No, I'm just correcting some of the misquotations (Laughing) (Laughter)

Mr. Buckley; Oh, all right. If you're saying, therefore, that conflict is what we're
V
doing right now, then I agree with you that conflict is probably necessary for the change

of any point of view. But most people und,,:rstand you to be saying something much more --
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
 Mr. Alinsl~: Yeah -- and what er -- 20.

~. Bucluey: sticl~.

Mro A1ins~: And what the understanding is closer to it than just our discussion. I don't --

Mr. Bucl<;:ley: Yea4-

Mr. Alinsl<;:y: -- want to - I don't want to get -- I don't want to take a pass on it. I'~

saying very -- very unreservedly, that our progreso com~s as a response to a threat, and

the reaction to the threat is wherein you get progresso 'I'm saying that all actions of

history have come that way.

, I
Mr. Buckley: That's not true~

Mr • .Alins~: There doesn't necessarily have to be violence --

Mr. Buckley: I'm quite -- but that's not true~ What was the tmreat -- what is the relevant

threat, let's say, when John decides to marry Jane. (Pause) Loneliness, if he doesn't,

you mean, in that sense? Then you're reducing threat to a state that's sort of meaningless.
see
Mr. Alinsky: Well, some people might say d suicidal design to it.
V Mr. Bucluey: Hell, then, Idee, I see - okay

Mr. A1ins~: Let's not get into (blurred by overlap)

Mr. Buckley: No, this is simply your lingo here -- your

Mr. Alins~: No, no, no. Let's - let me put it to you this way. On your basis of reason,

can you imagine a labor organizer comdng into an employer and saying, and I'm now quoting

some of the crHicism against me from a representative of the Joint Center up in Cambridge,

saying that I represent a negative approach, as up against a positive approach -- I repre-

sent negative conflict vis-a-vis positive, mutual search for cooperative common good. So

I come into you -- you're an employer. .l',.nd I am a literate labor organizer and believing

devoutlyin tIle act of reason, et cetera. And I say to you, particularly if you are General

....f Motors or any one of the emrIDyers, Nay, look, I don't want to go in and start organizing

your people, and, of course, I'll have to polarize this and make you a villain. There's

going to be all kinds of conflict and strike threats and so on until you recognize a union
\...,t
here. And you sit down and negotiate a contract with us. Why don't 'VIe, as rational men

committed to reason, why don't 'Yie sit down and in a mutual search for the common good, you
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr, University.
 21.
give me a contract recognizing a labor union here. You Itnow what you're going to do

on the basis of rational reason?

Mr. Buckley: No.

, Mr. Alinslty:

spinal tests.
You're going to call Bellevue and have them pick me up and go over there for

You blOW that.

I Mr. Buckley: No.

Mr. Alinsky: Come on.

1 Mr. Buckley: I'm going to say this is simply a technique of clever old iUinslty.
! Mr. Alinsky: And you're not going to do it~ You're not gonna do it, so I'm going to
1
have to go down there and organize.

j Mr. Buckley: I'm going to say that you're going to have to convince me that it is for

the good of everyone involved that they should be unionized.

Mr. Alinsky: You knmv any other '!tray I'm going to be able to convince you?

Mr. Buclt1ey: i{ell, I'm convinced by things all the time. I read books. I hear people
J
!. Vtalk. You see
'I
j
Mr. iUinsky: You know exactly what I'm talking about.
~i
i Mr. Buckley: No, no, no. You have a very -- you have a very sort of a Darwinistic view
·1
'~ 1
of how things happen.

Mr. iUinsky: Darwinistic?

Mr. Buckley: Yeah, you know. 'rhere's a certain amount of progress made because you eat
!
J the weak ones and the weak ones eat the wel:l.ker ones, and so and sO forth --
Mr. Alinsky: No, no, no;
Mr. Buckley: I don't think i\mericU:'lworks that way. It seems to me just -- (overlap)

Mr. Alinslty: No, no - you're getting off the lever. You know exactly what I'Ill talking

about. Do you Imow of any other way I can convince them?

~IT. Buckley: Look, looko I believe in the essentials of capitalism, and you can Sqy there

is a certain i:unount of conflict involved there. Your dilemma that you posed to me a moment

~gO is another \-ray of saying, what does the D:J,rketplace decide in a situation like that.

The marketplace decides tho,t force m8.jeur is .I:orce majeur and you have to yield to it.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
 The answer is if I don't have to yield on a point that I disavprove of, then I won't.
22.
If I'm made to yield, then I will, even if I disapprove of it. But I doult sec that
I U this is to add anything ne"T to the discussion, provided you don't go so far and say,
J
this whatever -- whatls Ulore is a philosopl~ of life. The answer is, I think" many more

people are convinced not by factions of pow~r but by the precepts of people they listen
internal
to and by some sort of/search and do the right thing.

Mr. iUinsl~: All right, let's tuH, ubout it for a moment. Ever since the Civil 'VIaI' and

before thut, I'm not even going to tul\:e the period of slavery in, this is a Christian,

'-Testern civilized nation. They've constantly been talking about the fact that the Mystical

Body of' Christ knO\-TS no coloX' line. They go to ChUl'ch and they hear all this in nice,

segregated churches, and on a rational basis all the anthropologists have come up '-T1t11

their various findings, cutting across through this color barrier, et cetera. Do you think

that there would have been any change as fur as civil rights legislation, as far as many of

the breakthroughs that have occurred --

Mr, Buckley: Of course.

l.!
-' Mr. P,.J.insl~: Oh, come on. I don't know what fairyland you're living in, if you --

J lvlr. Buckley: lIme:dca, that's my fai¢and, the country you don't kno\-T. Let me tell you

there was a tremendous an~unt of change during the preceding ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty

years in the United States.

14r.1Ilinsl\:y: I donlt know -- you know the kind of America you're liVing in, it really is

a fairyland when you tell me that Billy Grahwn has had al~ affect on thepoor of America.

Mr. Buckley: He has. There -- there are poor people who will tell you their lives have
", been changed by Billy Graham. 'rheir lives have been changed to the point they cease having

such a materialistic fixation as you tend to have \'Then you view the country around you.

The whole purpose --

~ 11r. Alinsky: A poor person ceases to have such a materialistic fixation.

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,

 Mr. Alinsky: I went -- yeah, I'll accept that one.

UMr. Buckley: You're a very bright man and America made it possible in pa.rt.

Mr. Alinsl\y: Yeah, but let me tell you something tllat I found very little businesses on

cockroach~s and rats and everything else living back in the store and so on with anything

] that Billy Graham would have been preaching on. If you call that u materialistic .fixation

I !
-- trying to get avlay from cockroaches -.. trying to get away from --

Mr. Buckley: I'm sure that Billy Graham would try to get away from cockroaches, too.
1
J ~tr •.~insky: I'm sure he would.

Mr. Bucluey: ~V only point is tllat having got away from the cockroaches, what then do you do?

Mr. Alinsky: I don't think he's done a ~~ thing as far as the liberation that is now coming

among the Black

j
Mr. Buckley: Well, I think we not going to talk exclusively about Black America, we're
.have
talking about people, even if they're not Black, they!deservffiyour consideration occasionally

and get it. And it seems to me that these people understand that there is a component in

~liVing which you tend to ignore.

j Mr.l\linsky: I donlt ignore --

Mr. Buckley: A spiritual component.

Mr. Alinsky: I don't ignore that spiritual component.

it's a
Mr. Buckley: Oh, you make fun of it. You thinyjkind of a laugh, don't you?

Mr. Alinsky: I don' t'~

Mr. Buckley: Because you especially love having the priests and rabbis (unclear -- fawn over
you?)

Mr. Alinsky: No, no, you know why I don't ignore it, It's very important.

Mr. Alinsky: It's very important that I don't because -- because if' you're -- if you're

fighting for a free open society, you're fighting for a free open society for people, and

;.1' you're fighting for people and "lith people, you're fighting for certain values.
o1/tr. Buckley: Umm.

Mr. Alinsl\y: Certain values that al'C at the very top of the hierarchy •. I wouldn't go into a
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
 ,"

COll1l1ll.l.nity and organi ze it if -- if they were to say to me, vIe ilTant you, vIe' re in-
24.
Viting you in -- we're funding this organization program, and as a consetluence of the

organization, they say democratically we have voted 99-1, let's say it's a southern

white community for segregation -- and that's the democratic way --

Mr. Buckley: uh-hm.

Mr. Alinslq: I ''1Ould say to them that tha.:b is not the democratic v/ay, and 1'm coming in

to fight you on it.

Mr. Buckl.ey: Uh-hmm.

Mr. Alinslq: Because the democratic way includes certain of these high values, and the

purpose of it, and those values ~ the Judeo-Christian moral principle that are involved

here. I er -- you're confusing one with the other in terms of those vlho profess to prac-

tice it. ~hose are the ones I've been after. Not the values. Not the spiritual life that

you're talking about.

Mr. Buckley: Yeah, but your whole approach seems to be directed (7 remarks are drowned

~ out when announcer breaks in) on the assumption

Announcer: 'He interrupt briefly and rejoin our participants in this interesting discussion.

Mr. Buckley: -- that the spiritual values don't accomplish ClJlurred word in overlap). It

may be that you simply vie"l --

Mr. Alinsky: Aren't the churches saying that themselves'? Aren't they saying

Mr. Buckley: Son~ are. But--

Mr. Alinslq: Isn't the big (lUestion today no longer is there life after deu.th but really

is there life after birth',

Mr. Buckley: Oh -- that sounds like something that Ired Sorenson would have vlritten. (Laughtel

Mr. !'.:linslq: No, it comes off a button.

Mr. Bucltley: Is there? I didn't know that.

Mr • .fUinsky: One of those buttons, you know. I mean the last part of' it.

Mr. Buckley: Maybe he bolwmianizes after hours.

Hr. Alinsky: Ah, '..lait u minute. It's not the Idnd of' button that mal\.Cs anybody laugh in

the Black ghettoes because that is actuallJ a basic question of life.

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

 Mr. Buckley: Hell, er 25.

UMr. Alinsky: Look, in all the ghettoes I've been in, I don't leno.'! -- I can't see anything

I can't even see one cockroach that turned over dead on the basis of any 6f-~RY of Billy

Graham' s ~xhortations on this particulal' level.

Mr. Bucl>.ley: If I rrk'W say so, that's a pretty vulgar observation because Billy Graham is

not the apostle of the faith that says, pray for the elimination of cockroaches and that

shall be done unto you. (Laughter) It is more or less generally assumed that however fervent

a believer you are, you've got to kill your Oi.,rn cockroaches and do something for yourself.

But you do have a view of society which is at leatt distinctive. For instance, in 1965

",hat you were most worrying about "ras the John Birch Society. No\'! let's not underestimate

this operation, you said in 1965, it's gro\'!ing, and in this \lay (rest unclear) --

Mr. Alinsl~: ill1at are you quoting from now?

Mr. Buckley: IIHarper's.1I (La ughter) Mr. Minsky also laughs.

Mr. Alinsky: You really read that, didn't you.

V11r. Buckley: Oh, yeah, everything. Can't you tell?

J Mr. Minsky: No, I tell you "rhy I say I can't tell. I was •.,rondering vn1ether you ever got

around to reading er --

Mr. Buckley: Not the book that was pro:nised in 19G6but has not yet been published?

Mr. Alinsky: No, no. I'TIl going to hea.!' about that tonight from Handon House. Did you get

around to reading that (unintelligible) of' Unioll rl'heological of' Means and ~nds.

1:-'11'. Buckley: No, I would like very much to huve it -- especially I'm very much interested in

you (?) in Means and Ends.

Mr. JQinsky: I thought that was some --

Mr. Buckley: But you don't think that the John Birch Society is a great threat now, do you
-- especially since it isn't growing since -- since when you said that?

Mr. Alinsky: Isn't it grOWing?

Mr. Buckley: No, sir.

V Mr • Alir:sl~: Oh, I' ,n glad to heal.' that. Do you have definite information on it?

Mr. Bucluey: II Viall Street Journal." (Lo:ughLd')

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

 Mr. Alinsky: (After laughing) Oh, you have your ovm pipe lines in that direction,

o haven't you? You've got better lines that I have.

Mr. Buckley: Much better, yeah. Perhaps before you say anything about the John Birch

Society in the future, you will consult me. (Laughter)

1 Mr. Alinsky: I'll be glad to. (Laughing)

! Mr. Buckley: Let's have some questions. (To audience) Yes, sir.

Question: I'd like to address mY question to Mr. Alinsky. Sir, in your speech you referred

'I many times to the Revolutionary Period in American history.

I Mr. Alinsky: vlliat speech are you talking about?
1 Questioner: Well, in the discussion that has been carried on this far. Now, with that in

j mind, Sir, do you consider the present time another revolutionary period, and if you do,

do you consider violence just may be a means to your ends?

Mr. Alinsl~: Yes, I do consider this a very definite revolutionary period 'because it is a

periodpi' enormous .change. I have alvlays said that I am opposed to violence unless it is

\.Ithe only possible recourse that a person has for life itself, literally. By life itself,

I mean equality, dignity and ~-

Announcer: Our time has just about run out. Our thanks now to Mr. Alinsl~, Hr. Buckley

and the students at St. John's University.

'x- * -x- *

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,